Breaking News: Daimler partners with BYD


Wolfgang

Kraftwagen König
Daimler AG signs Memorandum of Understanding with BYD Company Limited to Establish a Technology Partnership for Electric Vehicles in China

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Stuttgart/Hongkong, March 1, 2010

  • Technology partnership for a new electric vehicle suited to the Chinese market
  • New brand to be created by Daimler and BYD
  • Dr. Dieter Zetsche, Chairman of the Board of Management of Daimler AG: “We continue to push ahead as a global leader in electric mobility. Daimler’s know-how in electric vehicle architecture and BYD’s excellence in battery technology and e-drive systems are a perfect match.”
  • Mr. Wang Chuanfu, Chairman and President of BYD Company Limited: “This technology partnership creates a win-win business model with complimentary competences. We are very excited about this opportunity to work together with Daimler, the inventor of the automobile.”
Continue: Daimler AG signs Memorandum of Understanding with BYD Company Limited to Establish a Technology Partnership for Electric Vehicles in China
 
BYD is one of the largest manufacturers of lithium ion batteries in China. They supply batteries e.g. to Nokia and Motorola.

PS. Daimler will also continue with the battery production facility at Li-Tec, in partnership with Evonik.

Daimler, BYD to Develop an Electric Car for Chinese Market

Jay Miller / Wall Street Journal

Germany's Daimler AG and BYD Co. of China agreed to jointly develop an electric vehicle for the Chinese market, which last year became the world's biggest market for cars.

The pact builds on Daimler's deal with Tesla Motors Inc., a U.S. developer of electric cars, as the market for alternative-drive cars picks up with prodding from governments keen to reduce oil dependence and greenhouse-gas emissions.

In BYD, Daimler picks up a partner that has been developing battery technology since 1995. BYD gained a measure of credibility when Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway Inc. bought a stake in the auto maker in 2008.

"Daimler's know-how in electric vehicle architecture and BYD's excellence in battery technology and e-drive systems are a perfect match. Thus, we will be able to participate in the potential growth of electric mobility in China, currently the largest auto market of the world," said, Daimler chairman and head of Mercedes-Benz Cars.

Electric vehicles work best in cities, both companies noted, a condition that bodes well for the cars' use in China.

Daimler recently launched an electric version of the Smart car and will launch an all-electric version of the Mercedes-Benz A-Class this year.

Daimler, BYD to Develop Electric Car for China - WSJ.com

http://www.germancarforum.com/smart/30458-smart-fortwo-electric-drive-enters-production.html

http://www.germancarforum.com/class...-electric-mercedes-b-class-coming-2010-a.html

http://www.teslamotors.com
 
It's a great move from Daimler this partnership with BYD. At last something with a future, after the Chrysler flop. But is it really worth it? Here are some thoughts:

First of all, a fundamental question needs to be raised: "Are hybrid/electric cars really worth it?"

Most, if not all of as here, like genuine driving enthusiasts, even if some of us refuse to admit that driving a manual gearbox is fun, would answer, simply, NO. But why? For many reasons.

First of all, all car manufacturers, try to lower their average fuel consumption and CO2 emissions of their fleet of cars. This is not only because of the pressure applied by the European Union or the Federal American Government, but because of the progress of the technology used in modern cars. You see, at first we had carburators, then we discovered MPI, and now, DI is the magic word. This progress of technology, not only adds in power/output of engines, yet it adds to efficiency as well: More power with less consumption, less emissions. Turbo technology (unless driven like there is no tomorrow) gives more power for less engine volume, thus (more or less) less fuel. I strongly believe that the EU tried to cash on that, playing the "environment card" and pushing car manufacturers to become more eco-friendly, since this appeared to be the easiest thing to do, when people (or time) demand to be easy with the environment.

To make a little parenthesis here, I hope everyone knows why this whole crazyness with CO2 emissions. This is because the CO2 is one of the most important gasses that add to the Greenhouse Effect (GE) by 9 to 26%. The greenhouse effect is caused by an atmosphere containing gases that absorb and emit infrared radiation. Greenhouse gases trap heat within the surface-troposphere system, causing heating at the surface of the planet or moon. So, gasses like CO2 or methane, do really matter. End of parenthesis.

Summing up, car manufacturers make the cars more modern, and more powerfull and more efficient, which is the logical outcome of technological progress. Yet, the EU wants more, and the engineers try to suck an MPG or two, from their designs. This leads to changes, which driving enthusiasts do not like. Emissions control led to turbos, to downsizing, to more expensive petrol and even to problems like the ABS software problem that the Prius owners face. The last, I will talk about later on.

So, changes that subtract from driving fun,due to emissions requirements, are not welcome.

Then comes the age of technology. How many years since ABS was first introduced in an S-Class before it was widely spread? Many many. How many years it was tested? Many many. When it was released did it become a safety threat? Definitely not. Even in its primitive form. Yes hybrid technology has still to prove its advantage in fuel consumption and CO2 emissions compared with a modern diesel. What is more ecological. A VW Polo BlueTec or a Toyota Prius with an ancient 1.8l engine and 200kg of lithium batteries? In both cars, the kinetic energy that moves the car, comes from the chemical energy of the gasoline. In both cars, gas is burned to create movement, thus kinetic energy. In the Prius, the kinetic energy can be converted into chemical energy (stored in the batteries), but with huge losses, which in the end saves fuel. A Polo diesel, with a much more simpler drivetrain, a redesigned front bumper and a 1.3l diesel engine uses much less fuel than a super-high-tech hybrid. Why? You tell me...

What I want to prove, is that hybrid and/or full electric cars need many years of more testing before they achieve their goal and be more efficient and more eco-friendly than the equivelant oil burner. And problems, like the one with the Prius, proves that the technology has still a long way to go, before it's completely safe, durable and dependable. Now, it is not.

But then comes the amount of energy used to create a gas/diesel car in comparison to a hybrid.
Do you know how much damage to the environment does the production of those Lithium-Ion batteries? I am waiting from an official answer from a fellow engineer, but the numbers will bring you terror. I a Prius is good for the environment, then the process of making it is three times worse than making and driving a Polo. And in some cases a Hummer.

Moreover, hybrid cars have no manual gearboxes, not mechanical gas pedals, no mechanical connection of gas and brake pedal to anything, everything is artificial. Driving a Honda Insight, is like playing with a simulator, yet in a more real environment.

I can go on and on and on, about why hybrids is still not a viable solution to the global warming problem, and how using alternative fuels could be better, given the existing technology.

But I will tell you this: How much to the total of CO2 emissions add the whole fleet of cars on the planet today? Maybe 10-12%. Not more. Add all the tankers together and they produce two times as much CO2 as cars do.

But the biggest figure comes from my sector. 45% of the annual total CO2 emissions on the planet come from the constructions industry. Building, heating, cooling and maintaining existing buildings, produces almost half of the CO2 every year. This is where the EU and the rest of the global officials should focus on. Eco-building, or whatever you name it. Make buildings efficient. I have some numbers somewhere and I gurantee you this: If you want to save the earth, make your house efficient. Not your car.

Let me say this: Greece adds to the annual CO2 emissions a percentage of 0.002%. This may not sound much, but given that my country has a population of only 10.000.000 folks, 0.002 is far to much for such a small country. This is because more than 80% of the existing buildings have no heat insulation and the 15% not sufficient heat insulation and energy efficience.

In my humble opinion, EU should focus in buildings, not on cars, the easy targets.

:t-cheers:

edit: I forgot to comment about the sugnificance of the MB-BYD partnership. Well, given the cost of developing a hybrid powertrain, and the fact that everything is common, not like engines that each car maker has it's owns, hybrid systems are made by a handful of companies and then bought by car makers. Financially, it makes a lot of sense. For me, they better focus on hydrogene, before it's too late...

:t-cheers:
 
Thanks for your detailed thoughts on this topic, Giannis. :D

A VW Polo BlueTec or a Toyota Prius with an ancient 1.8l engine and 200kg of lithium batteries?

The present Prius has nickel metal hydride based batteries and I'm not sure about their environmental impact?

Daimler is more interested in and using lithium ion batteries, and they are one factor which enters into Daimler's annual sustainability report. In order to qualify for example to be listed in the Dow Jones Sustainability Index for the last five years or so, strict conditions need to be met.

Much more info can be found on Daimler's sustainability page here:

News: Sustainability | Daimler > Company > Sustainability > News

One reason Daimler is interested in this electric and hydrogen stuff is to make sure that they can still manufacture cars for enthusiasts, producing "JOY", today and also in the future, e.g. in 50 years or so, when petrol based fuels might no longer be available, or be very dear.

Much more info on Daimler's different drive technologies is on this page:
http://www.daimler.com/dccom/0-5-886397-1-1114805-1-0-0-0-0-0-36-7145-0-0-0-0-0-0-0.html
http://www.daimler.com/technology-and-innovation/drive-technologies


Giannis said:
In my humble opinion, EU should focus in buildings, not on cars, the easy targets.

Agreed. The present system doesn't make much sense, economically.
 
I think your views on the Hybrid are a bit too negative. They also are a real-life test for electric engines, a real-life test for kinetic energy recovery. They are also used to make electric cars accepted by the customers.

And no, the 1.8l of the Prius is not your average ancient petrol engine.

One thing is often overlooked by the Hybrid detractors: the engine of an hybrid car doesn't run the conventional Otto mode. It runs according to the Atkinson cycle. Less torque, less refinement, way less pollution. Yet the smoothness and impressive torque of the electric engines compensate the drawbacks of the cycle, and remain the benefits. So yes, even on the highway, the hybrid is greener. Mind, maybe it will burn as much fuel as your Polo, but it still will emit less pollution.

As far as the pollution from the batteries (production and recycling), I have no data. But the tech evolves very fast since the recent trend toward hybrid cars, with the newest Li-Ion, and the big investments will surely create even greener and more efficient batteries, which will in return be used in many other consumer goods.

Don't misunderstand me: I consider all that green wave to be completely out of proportions. it's a way to make us pay more. Because nothing is really made by our govts to truly draw the conclusions from all that eco-thing movement they are publicly supporting.

We're still globalized, ruled by money and thus growth of the economy, which means we're still in a consumerist civilization (the artificially created urge to consume always more is totally incompatible with any ecologic thought), the industrials are free to pollute as they want as are the planes.

Nothing is made to truly encompass what ecologism really means. All the big and powerful are doing is taxing the poor citizens, making them pay for super-expensive green stuff in their cars, and voila.

Oh they are also often using the green excuse to convince you to change your old car for a new, greener one.
Problem: producing a car is so polluting that you need to drive your new car for averagely 30 years to be greener that your neighbor who kept his old car...
 


The latest update comes from Geneva.

China's BYD, Daimler team up on electric vehicle

GENEVA — Chinese auto maker BYD (Build Your Dreams) and German giant Daimler have signed a preliminary agreement to mass produce an electric car together, executives said at the Geneva motor show on Tuesday.

Under the memorandum of understanding, the world's oldest automaker and one of the youngest aim to market the vehicle under a new jointly owned brand, merging their technological knowhow for China's fast expanding urban market. "Under the agreement Daimler and BYD intend to develop a new electric vehicle specially for the requirements of the Chinese market," said BYD general manager Henry Li in Geneva, calling it a milestone for the fledgling company.

"This is a cooperation between the most senior automaker and the youngest... between the country with the best auto industry and the country with the biggest auto market," he told journalists. Daimler chairman Dieter Zetsche said the company was taking a foothold in the electric vehicle sector in China, now the world's biggest and fast growing car market with about 16 million sales a year.

"Daimler's knowhow in electric vehicle architecture and BYD's excellence in battery technology and e-drive systems are a perfect match," Zetsche said in a statement. In Geneva, Zetsche said he hoped for an agreement "pretty soon" and signalled that the two had an "ambitious schedule." "It's certainly supposed to be an electric vehicle for the broader market," he added.

Launched just seven years ago, BYD Auto now claims to be the sixth biggest car maker in China and its future plans are focused on electric or hybrid vehicles, building on the experience of its battery making parent group. Li said the company's sales grew about 150 percent last year.

The Chinese firm unveiled its electric powered E6 people carrier in Europe for the first time at the Geneva Motor Show, which opened its doors to industry watchers on Tuesday ahead of the public opening on Thursday. It aims to sell the car in Europe in 2011.

Daimler, which made one of the first cars in the world in the 19th century, is the parent company of brands Mercedes and Smart. The German carmaker recently started testing electric vehicle technology on the road in Berlin with a local power company, and also took a stake in US electric sports car specialist Tesla last May.

BYD and Daimler regard China as potentially being one of the world's largest markets for zero emissions vehicles. However, analysts are sceptical about the short term prospects for drivers, because of the current technical limits on the range of purely battery powered vehicles, their cost, and the lack of a networks of roadside power points. "There will be serious numbers in 2020," said Frank Schwope of Nord LB bank.

Copyright © 2010 AFP. All rights reserved.

AFP: China's BYD, Daimler team up on electric vehicle
 
^^^ That's a couple of years old. Now they have a better one.

The logo of the new joint venture between BYD and Daimler has not been published yet.
 
another update from Geneva

BYD Links Up With Daimler to Build Electric Cars in China

By WILLIAM DIEM / New York Times

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Desmazes/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images
Wang Chuanfu, chairman of BYD Auto, at the Geneva auto show on Tuesday.

GENEVA – As other Chinese automakers bypass the auto show here, BYD Auto and the Chinese company’s Swiss importer, Martin Parsons, promised they “will be in Geneva every year.”

There is some reason to believe that the company has the legs to keep the promise. Warren Buffet invested $250 million in BYD in 2008, mainly because of its strength in electric-vehicle battery technology. Last year, BYD sold 450,000 gasoline-engine cars in China, more than doubling its 2008 sales and becoming the sixth biggest Chinese automaker.

This week, BYD signed a memorandum of understanding with Daimler to build electric cars together in China. Henry Li, BYD’s international sales manager, said the company will develop an electric car that will be positioned above the e6, the four-door electric passenger car that BYD displayed at the Detroit auto show in January. Another Chinese automaker, Brilliance, is a partner of BMW in China.

According to Mr. Li, BYD will sell its e6 and F3DM plug-in hybrid next year in Europe. The e6 is to go on sale in China later this year, he said, and will be introduced in the United States and Europe in 2011. He didn’t give dates nor anticipated sales volumes. Only about 100 F3DMs have been sold in China since going on sale a year ago, and e6 sales will also start slowly, he said, with Chinese customers mainly being government and taxi fleets.

Mr. Parsons said there are Swiss buyers willing to pay extra to have an electric car like the e6. He said he is watching Peugeot’s offer in France to lease a small electric car based on the Mitsubishi i-MiEV for 500 euros ($673) a month, and “if that works, we will follow it.”

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/201...with-daimler-to-build-electric-cars-in-china/
 
Even their logo was a clone! And finally they've improved on the logo after all those years. I hope they rethink about their products too! :eusa_doh:

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