BMW, Mercedes could develop compact cars together
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Mr. Mercedes
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SCOTT27
Drift Dynamo
BMW interested in buying Honda Swindon factory
Success of X1 SUV and lack of extra capacity at Oxford Mini plant could see the German car maker move some production to Wiltshire.
As I posted earlier this week.
The clandestine discussion in Munich on the day of the Annual Conference seems to be gaining traction to build FWD based BMWs alongside MINI's and who knows what else in the future?
Success of X1 SUV and lack of extra capacity at Oxford Mini plant could see the German car maker move some production to Wiltshire.
As I posted earlier this week.
The clandestine discussion in Munich on the day of the Annual Conference seems to be gaining traction to build FWD based BMWs alongside MINI's and who knows what else in the future?
Mercedes would be smart to bring SMART into the picture.
automotivenewseurope
Geely set to buy major stake in Smart from Daimler
Chinese car maker is seeking 50% shareholding in Mercedes-Benz’s city car division, according to a British report
About this platform and the result of that the i2., wth this vehicle BMW positions the model mentioned for so many years below 1 series without the worry of diluting the brand.
I suppose that in the case of Mercedes will be an EQC under the A class, which puts both in the best-selling segment of the MINI , A1, Fiesta, Clio, 208, etc.
I wonder if it will continue the i3 because this i2 says that it resembles in size, I would say both since the i3 enjoys being established as a great product without being perfect.
I suppose that in the case of Mercedes will be an EQC under the A class, which puts both in the best-selling segment of the MINI , A1, Fiesta, Clio, 208, etc.
I wonder if it will continue the i3 because this i2 says that it resembles in size, I would say both since the i3 enjoys being established as a great product without being perfect.
Centurion
Apex Apex Predator
Smart’s survival as a brand baffles me. The cars are so overpriced.
Grosser
Stuttgart Specialist
Good news after 20 years
Well, MB was keeping it alive since it made no profit...
SCOTT27
Drift Dynamo
It's been a well known conversation ever since the justified move to the more profitable C segment for the A-Klasse.
That many feel the concept of the sandwich floor city car would be ideal and let's not forget they actually utilised this in precursor electric concepts back in the nineties-2000s.
Everything changed when the A-Klasse was not selling as well even though it was in a more premium second generation that they moved to the more profitable c-segment which has been more successful especially that they had the A-Klasse,B-Klasse,CLA and GLA.
What has brought the attention back to a sand which floor Electric mega city vehicle? Some say it's the BMW i3. The radical mega city car caught the industry by surprise. What with its radical construction and futuristic appearance. That the desire for something similar is finally starting to appear with the VW ID and SEAT facsimile. Skoda are are apparently not too far behind and if rumours correct the rebirth of the Audi A2 under an E-Tron guise.
The time for such vehicles is certainly here. I always believed that A2 and A-Klasse were too far ahead for their time in the nineties.
The question lies in affordability. Rumours lately say the car will be affordable but with Honda announcing that the small EV they have will be outwith the affordable bracket. It does remain to see how the ID,A2,EQA and i2/3 can do too.
CrunchSlaughtered
RPM Ruler
How much is Daimler paying to Geely in order to get rid of Smart?
EnI
Piston Pioneer
Some important news from CATL, Chinese battery maker and future battery supplier to MB & BMW (and some other carmakers like Volvo, JLR, PSA etc):
CATL Breaks Into 300+ Wh/kg Energy Density On Battery Cell Level
MAR 31 2019 BY MARK KANE
More range or lighter electric vehicles on the horizon
Chinese EV battery manufacturer Contemporary Amperex Technology Co (CATL) announced that its new lithium-ion cell sample achieved energy density of 304 Wh/kg.
The value was unofficially known from at least mid-2018 when confidential data leaked with a planned result of 300 Wh/kg and 700 Wh/L using a Ni-rich cathode and a Graphite/Si anode.
We believe that currently, no battery manufacturer has yet to reach 300 Wh/kg for lithium-ion batteries for electric cars in volume production as the state-of-the-art cells are at around 250 Wh/kg.
Let’s calculate the weight benefit of higher energy dense batteries for example packs:
50 kWh at 250 Wh/kg: 200 kg
50 kWh at 300 Wh/kg: 166 kg (down 34 kg or 17%)
From CATL’s presentation (slide shown by pushevs.com in mid-2018):
Source: insideevs.com
CATL Breaks Into 300+ Wh/kg Energy Density On Battery Cell Level
MAR 31 2019 BY MARK KANE
More range or lighter electric vehicles on the horizon
Chinese EV battery manufacturer Contemporary Amperex Technology Co (CATL) announced that its new lithium-ion cell sample achieved energy density of 304 Wh/kg.
The value was unofficially known from at least mid-2018 when confidential data leaked with a planned result of 300 Wh/kg and 700 Wh/L using a Ni-rich cathode and a Graphite/Si anode.
We believe that currently, no battery manufacturer has yet to reach 300 Wh/kg for lithium-ion batteries for electric cars in volume production as the state-of-the-art cells are at around 250 Wh/kg.
Let’s calculate the weight benefit of higher energy dense batteries for example packs:
50 kWh at 250 Wh/kg: 200 kg
50 kWh at 300 Wh/kg: 166 kg (down 34 kg or 17%)
From CATL’s presentation (slide shown by pushevs.com in mid-2018):
Source: insideevs.com
EnI
Piston Pioneer
Feb 4, 2019 - 06:04 pm
CATL boosts battery cell factory in Germany to 100GWh
CATL factory could be at least as big as Tesla's Gigafactory
The Chinese battery cell manufacturer CATL has updated the plans for its German battery factory in Erfurt, giving it a boost. The reason for this is the coming of stricter CO2 requirements in Europe. CATL considers a capacity of up to 100 GWh in Thuringia to be realistic. Our colleagues from electrive.net talked to Matthias Zentgraf, head of CATL’s European unit.
When the plans for Erfurt were first reported during the summer, there was talk of a capacity of 14 GWh per year in the first stage. Production is scheduled to start as early as 2021. CATL planned to invest around 240 million euros in the site by 2022, at least these were the original plans. Now, however, it is becoming apparent that the battery cell factory in the Erfurter Kreuz industrial area could become considerably larger than initially thought.
At the Battery Forum Germany, CATL European unit head Matthias Zentgraf showed a slide in his presentation which indicated an annual production capacity of 60 gigawatt hours (GWh) from 2026. We then sought an interview with Matthias Zentgraf. It quickly became apparent that even the 60 GWh capacity could be exceeded. “We thought in the middle of last year that the large orders had been awarded. But that was not the case. It goes further upwards,” said Zentgraf. “The inquiries of the automobile manufacturers are here! With realistic planning, we assume a demand of 100 GWh in the year 2025 – and that’s planning with a low level.” Well, that is a prospect.
While most European suppliers are still hesitating, the cell manufacturer CATL is quickly springing into action in Germany. Battery production in Erfurt could quickly exceed the size of Tesla’s Gigafactory in Nevada, given that Tesla CEO Elon Musk is also aiming for a long-term capacity of around 100 GWh with his battery factory.
It is therefore only beneficial to the industry that CATL has secured a sufficiently large area in Thuringia. This involves two areas of 35 hectares each plus a further 17 hectares for a supplier park in which the necessary preliminary products are to be produced. “Our initial planning is currently being revised,” Matthias Zentgraf said. There are further indications that CATL is now installing more production lines in its halls. Originally, two production halls were planned for the first 35-hectare field. “Perhaps the halls will now be larger,” says Zentgraf. For the manager, whose career led to CATL via Continental and Samsung SDI, the reasons are obvious: “The environment has changed considerably, the new CO2 targets lead to a faster eMobility ramp-up.”
Incidentally, Zentgraf has no doubt that “the automotive industry and we will get these electric cars on the road on schedule and in high quality”. The biggest uncertainty factor in the market ramp-up are the customers: “After all, they have to buy these cars, too”. It is obvious that manufacturers will endeavour to provide good offers for customers. In view of the EU decision to reduce the CO2 emissions of new passenger cars by 37.5 percent by 2030 compared to 2021, Volkswagen alone expects to have to sell around 600,000 more electric cars annually by 2030 than originally calculated.
Erfurt to supply customers throughout Europe
Among the customers CATL intends to supply from Erfurt are BMW, Daimler, the French PSA group, as well as Volvo and Jaguar Land Rover, to name a few. And what about Volkswagen? We asked Matthias Zentgraf whether trains with his battery cells would also roll into the VW group before 2030. The answer: “That can’t be ruled out”. The fact is: CATL also wants to win the Wolfsburg-based company as a customer in Europe, the possible establishment of its own VW cell production with SK Innovation is a thorn in Zentgraf’s side. After all, VW is also cooperating with CATL in China.
For Thuringia, a golden age of batteries could dawn independently of this. “Erfurt was ideal because of its proximity to customers,” says the CATL European head, explaining the decision in favour of the Central German state. Hungary, Poland and Slovenia were also in the running as locations, but for Matthias Zentgraf, it would not have made sense from a CO2 point of view to transport raw materials such as cobalt from the North Sea ports to Eastern Europe in order to then transport finished battery cells back to the car manufacturers in Germany. In addition, hardly any renewable energies are available in Eastern Europe and the qualification and loyalty of future employees in Erfurt are rated better.
Battery transport by rail
CATL wants to keep a firm eye on the CO2 footprint, as was repeatedly made clear in the interview. This is why the production materials will also be transported to Erfurt by rail before the finished cells will be delivered to the carmakers in the same way. A new rail connection to the Erfurt plant is even to be built specifically for this purpose, possibly with a small container terminal. It is a good thing that CATL has reserved other areas. The logistics challenge is great: 93 containers would leave the 100 GWh factory once a day. “It is our vision to deliver them to the manufacturers’ production facilities at precisely the right time by rail – and not by truck.
Source: electrive.net
CATL boosts battery cell factory in Germany to 100GWh
CATL factory could be at least as big as Tesla's Gigafactory
The Chinese battery cell manufacturer CATL has updated the plans for its German battery factory in Erfurt, giving it a boost. The reason for this is the coming of stricter CO2 requirements in Europe. CATL considers a capacity of up to 100 GWh in Thuringia to be realistic. Our colleagues from electrive.net talked to Matthias Zentgraf, head of CATL’s European unit.
When the plans for Erfurt were first reported during the summer, there was talk of a capacity of 14 GWh per year in the first stage. Production is scheduled to start as early as 2021. CATL planned to invest around 240 million euros in the site by 2022, at least these were the original plans. Now, however, it is becoming apparent that the battery cell factory in the Erfurter Kreuz industrial area could become considerably larger than initially thought.
At the Battery Forum Germany, CATL European unit head Matthias Zentgraf showed a slide in his presentation which indicated an annual production capacity of 60 gigawatt hours (GWh) from 2026. We then sought an interview with Matthias Zentgraf. It quickly became apparent that even the 60 GWh capacity could be exceeded. “We thought in the middle of last year that the large orders had been awarded. But that was not the case. It goes further upwards,” said Zentgraf. “The inquiries of the automobile manufacturers are here! With realistic planning, we assume a demand of 100 GWh in the year 2025 – and that’s planning with a low level.” Well, that is a prospect.
While most European suppliers are still hesitating, the cell manufacturer CATL is quickly springing into action in Germany. Battery production in Erfurt could quickly exceed the size of Tesla’s Gigafactory in Nevada, given that Tesla CEO Elon Musk is also aiming for a long-term capacity of around 100 GWh with his battery factory.
It is therefore only beneficial to the industry that CATL has secured a sufficiently large area in Thuringia. This involves two areas of 35 hectares each plus a further 17 hectares for a supplier park in which the necessary preliminary products are to be produced. “Our initial planning is currently being revised,” Matthias Zentgraf said. There are further indications that CATL is now installing more production lines in its halls. Originally, two production halls were planned for the first 35-hectare field. “Perhaps the halls will now be larger,” says Zentgraf. For the manager, whose career led to CATL via Continental and Samsung SDI, the reasons are obvious: “The environment has changed considerably, the new CO2 targets lead to a faster eMobility ramp-up.”
Incidentally, Zentgraf has no doubt that “the automotive industry and we will get these electric cars on the road on schedule and in high quality”. The biggest uncertainty factor in the market ramp-up are the customers: “After all, they have to buy these cars, too”. It is obvious that manufacturers will endeavour to provide good offers for customers. In view of the EU decision to reduce the CO2 emissions of new passenger cars by 37.5 percent by 2030 compared to 2021, Volkswagen alone expects to have to sell around 600,000 more electric cars annually by 2030 than originally calculated.
Erfurt to supply customers throughout Europe
Among the customers CATL intends to supply from Erfurt are BMW, Daimler, the French PSA group, as well as Volvo and Jaguar Land Rover, to name a few. And what about Volkswagen? We asked Matthias Zentgraf whether trains with his battery cells would also roll into the VW group before 2030. The answer: “That can’t be ruled out”. The fact is: CATL also wants to win the Wolfsburg-based company as a customer in Europe, the possible establishment of its own VW cell production with SK Innovation is a thorn in Zentgraf’s side. After all, VW is also cooperating with CATL in China.
For Thuringia, a golden age of batteries could dawn independently of this. “Erfurt was ideal because of its proximity to customers,” says the CATL European head, explaining the decision in favour of the Central German state. Hungary, Poland and Slovenia were also in the running as locations, but for Matthias Zentgraf, it would not have made sense from a CO2 point of view to transport raw materials such as cobalt from the North Sea ports to Eastern Europe in order to then transport finished battery cells back to the car manufacturers in Germany. In addition, hardly any renewable energies are available in Eastern Europe and the qualification and loyalty of future employees in Erfurt are rated better.
Battery transport by rail
CATL wants to keep a firm eye on the CO2 footprint, as was repeatedly made clear in the interview. This is why the production materials will also be transported to Erfurt by rail before the finished cells will be delivered to the carmakers in the same way. A new rail connection to the Erfurt plant is even to be built specifically for this purpose, possibly with a small container terminal. It is a good thing that CATL has reserved other areas. The logistics challenge is great: 93 containers would leave the 100 GWh factory once a day. “It is our vision to deliver them to the manufacturers’ production facilities at precisely the right time by rail – and not by truck.
Source: electrive.net
CrunchSlaughtered
RPM Ruler
It's not a great idea, it's a must for every big factory. Although, Germany is famous with it's contry covering inner rivers ship transport, which is times better in CO2 balance than railroad.
Wolfgang
Kraftwagen König
From the Auto Motor and Sport Conference:
Zetsche did not want to rule out that BMW and Daimler may develop joint platforms beyond the areas of mobility services and autonomous driving. Corresponding information that there may be a common electric platform, Zetsche did not want to deny. "It makes sense to do some things together," says the CEO. When asked if this was a platform, Zetsche said, "Schaun mer mal." (We'll see.)
EnI
Piston Pioneer
It's inevitable.
And it makes sense. Everybody's doing it. VAG + Ford, PSA + FCA, Renault + Nissan etc.
At least in this first stage of BEV era it's crucial to cut costs (R&D + production) to the level of being able to offer a competitive product @ affordable price ASAP, and making a profit while doing it.
Mind legacy carmakers are not start-ups, being able to bleed other people's money @ high speed. Like Tesla and other start ups can do it.
Since BMW & Daimler are merging their mobility services, it's inevitable to also develop AD platform together, and potentially (at least entry-class: sub-compacts, compacts, entry midsize) the BEV platform (= architecture) as well.
Batteries cells will come from CATL (perhaps the Germans will negotiate to buy a larger stake in it ... Btw, BMW have always done that ... getting 1.6% stake in CATL). Packs will be done in-house by each company separately.
So will be e-motors & processing units. But standards will be set by the common architecture so all the components will be able to fit the platform.
So, in the end BMW will still be BMW, MB will still be MB. One more dynamic, the other more comfortable.
Mind BEVs will be more like smart phones. Or notebooks / laptops ... Very much alike. User experience will be different of course, as will be some components. But more of the same in the end ... But still a status symbol & still the brand image will play a big role. And companies that will introduce the latest tech @ the most affordable price @ lowest development & production costs and thus biggest profits (or not if enjoying huge brand image & loyalty) will benefit the most, grow the most, prosper the most.
With BEVs - especially with some sort of AD Level on board, and with mobility services becoming more important - we are leaving the classic automotive sphere we know it today, and entering the consumer electronics sphere instead. As Bangle once called it: "personal mobility solutions / units".
And it makes sense. Everybody's doing it. VAG + Ford, PSA + FCA, Renault + Nissan etc.
At least in this first stage of BEV era it's crucial to cut costs (R&D + production) to the level of being able to offer a competitive product @ affordable price ASAP, and making a profit while doing it.
Mind legacy carmakers are not start-ups, being able to bleed other people's money @ high speed. Like Tesla and other start ups can do it.
Since BMW & Daimler are merging their mobility services, it's inevitable to also develop AD platform together, and potentially (at least entry-class: sub-compacts, compacts, entry midsize) the BEV platform (= architecture) as well.
Batteries cells will come from CATL (perhaps the Germans will negotiate to buy a larger stake in it ... Btw, BMW have always done that ... getting 1.6% stake in CATL). Packs will be done in-house by each company separately.
So will be e-motors & processing units. But standards will be set by the common architecture so all the components will be able to fit the platform.
So, in the end BMW will still be BMW, MB will still be MB. One more dynamic, the other more comfortable.
Mind BEVs will be more like smart phones. Or notebooks / laptops ... Very much alike. User experience will be different of course, as will be some components. But more of the same in the end ... But still a status symbol & still the brand image will play a big role. And companies that will introduce the latest tech @ the most affordable price @ lowest development & production costs and thus biggest profits (or not if enjoying huge brand image & loyalty) will benefit the most, grow the most, prosper the most.
With BEVs - especially with some sort of AD Level on board, and with mobility services becoming more important - we are leaving the classic automotive sphere we know it today, and entering the consumer electronics sphere instead. As Bangle once called it: "personal mobility solutions / units".
CrunchSlaughtered
RPM Ruler
If Tesla is burning money, at least they are getting some heat out of this, while the Germans were literally throwing money out through the window. Tesla managed to develope and produce an affordable and PROFITABLE car in the face of the Model 3. And what have the Germans done till now: BMW has spent billions for the i3 and i8 and now their strategy is completely changed making absolutely no use of these two models. AUDI has the e tron which brings nothing groundbreaking to the table while costing an arm and a leg for AUDI. There was a study stating that the e tron would reach the investment break even point when at least 600 000 units are produced. And the EQC of Mercedes doesn't worth an audition at all.
Thursday, June 06, 2019, 10:58 am
Joint development:
Audi apparently wants to work with BMW and Mercedes
All manufacturers must save, so there are more and more cooperation. Now, according to a report Audi wants to work with the two main rivals.
By Stefan Wimmelbücker
Bram Schot: The head of Audi plans a report according to a development alliance with the competitors BMW and Mercedes. (Photo: Audi)
Audi boss Bram Schot has met with the new Mercedes boss Ola Källenius to talk about a possible cooperation. That reports the "car, engine and sport". It should go to a collaboration in the development of autonomously driving cars . BMW and Mercedes have already announced such cooperation a few months ago.
In addition to the lower costs for all sides, the manufacturers would have the advantage of being able to jointly increase the pressure on politicians to finally get the necessary approvals for autonomous driving. Mercedes wants to let the upcoming S-Class drive autonomously on Level 3. Audi has been offering such a system for years in the current A8, but can not unlock it because the necessary approvals are missing .
Audi is planning high investments
Audi wants to invest a total of 14 billion euros in the future topics of autonomous driving, digital services and electromobility by 2023 . This should be saved elsewhere. "We have raised the savings target from the original ten to 15 billion euros by the end of 2022. This will not be comfortable, but we clearly put the profit zone before the comfort zone," said Schot.
The brand is still suffering from the exhaust scandal and the late WLTP conversion and in recent years significantly behind BMW and Mercedes fallen .
Competitors have a lead
A few years ago, the three premium manufacturers jointly acquired the map service Here, which supplies high-precision maps for autonomously driving cars. Everyone is working very hard on autonomous driving. Nevertheless, the competitors like Waymo or Mobileye are continuing. Tesla also has a head start because the e-car pioneer has been using his controversial "autopilot" system for years and has gained a lot of experience.
Joint development:
Audi apparently wants to work with BMW and Mercedes
All manufacturers must save, so there are more and more cooperation. Now, according to a report Audi wants to work with the two main rivals.
By Stefan Wimmelbücker
Bram Schot: The head of Audi plans a report according to a development alliance with the competitors BMW and Mercedes. (Photo: Audi)
Audi boss Bram Schot has met with the new Mercedes boss Ola Källenius to talk about a possible cooperation. That reports the "car, engine and sport". It should go to a collaboration in the development of autonomously driving cars . BMW and Mercedes have already announced such cooperation a few months ago.
In addition to the lower costs for all sides, the manufacturers would have the advantage of being able to jointly increase the pressure on politicians to finally get the necessary approvals for autonomous driving. Mercedes wants to let the upcoming S-Class drive autonomously on Level 3. Audi has been offering such a system for years in the current A8, but can not unlock it because the necessary approvals are missing .
Audi is planning high investments
Audi wants to invest a total of 14 billion euros in the future topics of autonomous driving, digital services and electromobility by 2023 . This should be saved elsewhere. "We have raised the savings target from the original ten to 15 billion euros by the end of 2022. This will not be comfortable, but we clearly put the profit zone before the comfort zone," said Schot.
The brand is still suffering from the exhaust scandal and the late WLTP conversion and in recent years significantly behind BMW and Mercedes fallen .
Competitors have a lead
A few years ago, the three premium manufacturers jointly acquired the map service Here, which supplies high-precision maps for autonomously driving cars. Everyone is working very hard on autonomous driving. Nevertheless, the competitors like Waymo or Mobileye are continuing. Tesla also has a head start because the e-car pioneer has been using his controversial "autopilot" system for years and has gained a lot of experience.
CrunchSlaughtered
RPM Ruler
Quite convenient. When sh!t happens, MB and AUDI play the whistleblowers and BMW pays the fines.
EnI
Piston Pioneer
Maybe this collaboration is now a chance to pay the dues for MB & Audi ... bearing most the R&D costs but getting BMW Group all the access to the tech. I'm sure savings will be much greater for BMW than all the potential German & EU anti-cartel fines.
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