Car and Driver Lightning lap 2013

[mini_cooper4]

Is there any way I can get a Charger Pursuit ?

 

[j_scott]

Nice scan but haven't you guys read this --- http://jalopnik.com/5760248/how-ferrari-spins
No way I am believing any Ferrari lap time. They probably said the target lap time was from simulation but sure it was more like they went to VIR to tune the 458 before the test. Just like the 599 test he talks about.
Too bad they didn't test more super cars -- the article would have been more interesting.
This is a great forum you guys have made -- I never seen so many high quality scans -- nice work!

 

[Mafalda]

Nice scan but haven't you guys read this --- http://jalopnik.com/5760248/how-ferrari-spins
No way I am believing any Ferrari lap time. They probably said the target lap time was from simulation but sure it was more like they went to VIR to tune the 458 before the test. Just like the 599 test he talks about.
Too bad they didn't test more super cars -- the article would have been more interesting.
This is a great forum you guys have made -- I never seen so many high quality scans -- nice work!

hahahahahah it's almost two years old
few week later C. Harris also wrote (no so famous like "how ferrari spins"...) "Mnfrs optimized? sometimes, but I understand it"
how to talk about the exactly same topic, but from diametrically opposed points of view

full agree with the last part of your post!

 

[DeDe]

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[j_scott]

Mnfrs optimized? sometimes, but I understand it"

Do you have a link for this I would like to read thanks. Still it is enough to convince me that Ferrari is the worst for cheating. To bad cuz the cars are pretty.

 

[martinbo]

Others of course may argue that Ferrari are merely the best at optimising. Whether I agree with such "manipulation" or not is irrelevant. It's just that we've been down this long, long road many times before.

 

[Mafalda]

Do you have a link for this I would like to read thanks. Still it is enough to convince me that Ferrari is the worst for cheating. To bad cuz the cars are pretty.

the article was posted in supercarforum, but the pic is now not avaible (it was posted in summer 2011...). I've already linked it here many months ago, and others GCF-members have seen it. I'm trying to find it again.
nothing special, the artcile talks about some "strange" test of the past, also about citycar (I remeber very old ford fiesta). but the best part is the difference between "manipulations" and "optimize"

however, just few weeks after the famous article "how ferrari spin", McLaren has given its MP4 available for the first tests on track the track (UK magazines), and the magazine have been compared with the Ferrari 458
if I rember as well, all the magazine decreed the 458-superiority and, just after a few days, McLaren has taken up the development of Mp4 to improve it!

I repeat to you what I said here two years ago: of course, Ferrari really cares about magazine-review, and surely their press-cars are in "good form", but if you believe how Ferrari uses dragsters, and the others select like a bingo thier "press-cars" from the assembly line , you're wrong! ... and McLaren, maybe biggest ferrari-rival ever, recognized the objective quality of the 458
and don't remeber how stock Enzo, F50 and 430s were no slower on straghit/track than official ones

 

[j_scott]

the article was posted in supercarforum, but the pic is now not avaible (it was posted in summer 2011...). I've already linked it here many months ago, and others GCF-members have seen it. I'm trying to find it again.
nothing special, the artcile talks about some "strange" test of the past, also about citycar (I remeber very old ford fiesta). but the best part is the difference between "manipulations" and "optimize"

however, just few weeks after the famous article "how ferrari spin", McLaren has given its MP4 available for the first tests on track the track (UK magazines), and the magazine have been compared with the Ferrari 458
if I rember as well, all the magazine decreed the 458-superiority and, just after a few days, McLaren has taken up the development of Mp4 to improve it!

I repeat to you what I said here two years ago: of course, Ferrari really cares about magazine-review, and surely their press-cars are in "good form", but if you believe how Ferrari uses dragsters, and the others select like a bingo thier "press-cars" from the assembly line , you're wrong! ... and McLaren, maybe biggest ferrari-rival ever, recognized the objective quality of the 458
and don't remeber how stock Enzo, F50 and 430s were no slower on straghit/track than official ones

Thanks Mafalda. Still sounds like cheating to me ---- there is giving a sorted car in good form and then there is going much further than that. Anyway if you guys have discussed much already then no need to get back into it. But I still will take all Ferrari lap times with a very big grain of salt since they have been singled out for their actions.

 

[Mafalda]

 

[martinbo]

Thanks Mafalda. Still sounds like cheating to me ---- there is giving a sorted car in good form and then there is going much further than that. Anyway if you guys have discussed much already then no need to get back into it. But I still will take all Ferrari lap times with a very big grain of salt since they have been singled out for their actions.

You're welcome to get back into it - this is a discussion board after all. Just beware of the potential ruckus that may arise. Bench-racing 101 FTW!

 

[330CIZHP]

Unfortunately, I wanted to stay quiet and not rain on the parade, but interestingly Ferrari "strategy" on this test have been surfacing on the internet and is being extensively discussed on Ferrari site (yes, honorable Ferrari site and owners themselves raising the flag on what Ferrari did).

Yes, the car unfortunately was a press ringer that was given to roadandtrack.

Source: Ferrarichat.com

It is the same Silver 458 Italia press car that was tested by Road and Track against the ZR1 and the MP4-12C, and yes it is a ringer.

Here are the tricks:

1.- MSRP of close to $340k with every lightweight option checked. Around 140 lbs lighter than a 2010 Italia with no options.
2.- Track alignment, corner weighed, not what the showroom cars have when delivered. This was documented on the Road & Track article (3 Kings) for the printed version of the magazine. McLaren and Ferrari crews were fighting at each other over this.
3.- Shaved Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires.

I have a set of MPSS tires for over a year now, these tires have more grip than the Bridgestone RE-11 as they wear down. The Bridgestone already proved faster than my stock Pirelli Corsa tires in the Scuderia, using my data acquisition at the same racetracks and many laps.

The MPSS is the reason the 599GTO switched from Pirelli Corsa System. In the 599 GTO, Michelin produces a shaved version of this tire at 7/32" tread depth rather than the standard 10/32" tread depth on the set I got. Shaving treaded tires is an old trick to produce faster lap times, with benefits such as less rotating mass, lower unsprung weight, more contact patch, and more predictable at the limits.

A few months ago, Michelin released these shaved tires for the 458 Italia. No surprises seeing this tire reach 1.08g at the VIR horse shoe, where aero and power has nothing to do, just pure mechanical grip delivered by the chassis and tires.

.......

The 458 track day car (Corsa, Monza or Monte Carlo) to be released at the end of this year is going to be awesome.
__________________

 

[Mafalda]

@ j_scott: now you can see a clear example how "ferrai manipulates, when the other mnfrs save the world"
@ 330CIZHP:
1. according with C&D lighting lap article ""this 458 weighs +33Lbs than previus 458 we tested. >$50,000 probably save some weight, but not enough to offste the also optional front-lifter"
2. Michelin Pilot SS are street legal, no R-compound and not a ferrari-exclusive
3.optionals: I ask you all again: just ferrari qith CF optionals, other mnfrs with with heavy optionals? sure???
even so, for more repalys, use this topic
http://www.germancarforum.com/commu...anipulation-for-even-all-manufacturers.43642/

 

[330CIZHP]

It says "shaved" and not "slicks". He also explains all the reasons why it makes a substantial difference.

@ j_scott: now you can see a clear example how "ferrai manipulates, when the other mnfrs save the world"
@ 330CIZHP:
1. according with C&D lighting lap article ""this 458 weighs +33Lbs than previus 458 we tested. >$50,000 probably save some weight, but not enough to offste the also optional front-lifter"
2. Michelin Pilot SS are street legal, no R-compound and not a ferrari-exclusive
3.optionals: I ask you all again: just ferrari qith CF optionals, other mnfrs with with heavy optionals? sure???
even so, for more repalys, use this topic
http://www.germancarforum.com/commu...anipulation-for-even-all-manufacturers.43642/

 

[Mafalda]

obviously, other mnfr use random tyre setups...

 

[Sunny]

1.- MSRP of close to $340k with every lightweight option checked. Around 140 lbs lighter than a 2010 Italia with no options.
2.- Track alignment, corner weighed, not what the showroom cars have when delivered. This was documented on the Road & Track article (3 Kings) for the printed version of the magazine. McLaren and Ferrari crews were fighting at each other over this.
3.- Shaved Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires.

Source: Ferrarichat.com

1. If these are options that are available to a customer - sure, why not. But I somehow doubt just lightweight options can save you 140lbs.

2. Again, few other cars - offer different suspension setting for street vs track use - GT3, GTR. A costumer can ask your dealer/mechanic to set up the car for for track days and a lot of people do. So if it is the same deal with Ferrari and it is an option available to costumers, sure why not. If it is not, then yea, red flag.

3. Yea, sort of grey area especially if others in the comparison didn't know they could do the same. But again lot of people who track seriously will shave the tires. Tire Rack, I think even gives you the option to buy tires shaved.

For me the guideline for deciding if something is cheating or not is-

1. Is it an option available to the costumer (from the manufacturer)?
2. Did the others in the comparison know they could do the same?

 

[Mafalda]

Dear sunny, this is the incredibly point of this 2 years old querelle: there are tons of full review about supercars with tons of tech-optionals, but only ferrari manipulates.... This is a mistery!