Chris Bangle on Supercars at the Geneva motor show 2011
- Thread starter Bartek S.
- Start date
lambornima
Porsche Perfektionist
wow Bangle is so annoying to listen to...
jack
Kraftkurve King
no, bangle is asking the right questions
and sometimes its annoying to listen to the right answers
SCOTT27
Drift Dynamo
He is actually a genius when you think about...
Bangle does not give the technical reply... he goes straight for the reply "With great emphasis"
He may be asking probing questions but in the end of the day the designer has to explain why this design fits within this brand.
That is the core principle of design.
I have seen BMW people ask the same questions to interns , they design their far-out ideas and then they are tasked with the all important question... "what makes it a BMW"?
It is the same with me with a marketing concept - Interesting idea but "What makes it reflect a BMW?"
Not only car designers but I am sure architects , product designers and industrial designers have to answer the same question.
Bangle does not give the technical reply... he goes straight for the reply "With great emphasis"
He may be asking probing questions but in the end of the day the designer has to explain why this design fits within this brand.
That is the core principle of design.
I have seen BMW people ask the same questions to interns , they design their far-out ideas and then they are tasked with the all important question... "what makes it a BMW"?
It is the same with me with a marketing concept - Interesting idea but "What makes it reflect a BMW?"
Not only car designers but I am sure architects , product designers and industrial designers have to answer the same question.
coolraoul
Torque Titan
Yet in the german Automotorundsport, where he was asked about the evolution of car design those last 125 years, he gives one example:
"BMW 3-Series and Mercedes C-Class look alike"... He then goes to the computer, removes the brand, grille and wheels out of the pics of a 3er and a C, and shows how you cannot say what their brand is...
So, seems he would be unable to answer his own question...
125 Jahre Automobil: Chris Bangle analysiert die Designhistorie - auto motor und sport
7saen
Autobahn Adventurer
Exactly.. and there is where you see how Catriota is so full of himself, that he didn't care for the brand itself but only for his carreer and he did so far. this is not the work of a good designer. He is treating the Saab as his own brand and as just another bullit point in his resume.
Chris was asking the very same questions that I had in mind when I first saw the pictures of this thing. I had so high hopes for it, but now I'm not sure what to expect. What I know is that a clean, product design oriented form language won't be part of Saab's future with Castriota as a chief designer.
I miss the AeroX Concept and what it promised
jack
Kraftkurve King
the automobile world lives inside a very narrow box
chris bangle tried to open this box as far as possible (GINA, flame surface, THE butt,....), but cars like a 3series are sort of untouchables -> you can't change tradition
so it may look contradictory to you, but also the visions of chris bangle were bound to limits. still, we have to give bmw the credits, because without them he wouldn't be able to expand the narrow box of car design
Sunny
Premium
I thought his analogy of Ferrari and Lamborghini designs was both funny and apt. Lamborghini designs are wild and crazy but ultimately shallow like sex with a hooker, albeit an expensive one - not that I know what that feels like. 
His problem is, he is not a "car guy" or a petrol head. He is a designer and that collides with car guy in enthusiasts, including me.
His problem is, he is not a "car guy" or a petrol head. He is a designer and that collides with car guy in enthusiasts, including me.
EnI
Piston Pioneer
Design vs styling ...
I would hardly call some new creases on the body surface a design ... it's more a question of styling. Design is more or less the same as it was decades ago.
Automotive design is very limited by functionality. Form follows function. Anything beyond that is pure decoration ... pure styling.
Automobiles are still n-box 3D objects with 4 wheels, lights on the front & on the rear, and at least a windshield (if not all the greenhouse).
You can have a 1-box object like eg vans, or 2-box objects like wagons, hatches, SUVs. Or 3-box objects like eg. sedans. And all the cross-over shapes between that.
Sure materials used can be different: from various metals, leather, wood, cloth, plastic or CFRP, glass ... But the primal shape, design is still the same - since it follows function.
In industrial design in many cases objects are limited by function. Sure you can change the styling, the decoration a bit - but functionality has to stay intact. Just look at the various products: from TV, washing machine, fridge ... or even furniture, lamps etc etc. Not to mention the tools & machinery where all beyond pure functional design is just a make-up (eg. lawnmowers etc).
Bangle: a genius or a kook
Let's first discuss Bangle as designer ... Sure he (re)introduced some styling elements in the automotive design --- the Butt, the convex-concave surfaces etc --- making the styling, the surfaces more 3D. But he sure didn't changed the design paradigm as he had wished for.
His appearance may be quite kooky & eccentric ... strange & odd ... But Bangle sure is a genius. A great visionary ... a great thinker ... a great academic & philosopher. A great manager as well. A great boss. Not sure about being a great stylist - since his sense of aesthetics was a bit awkward, at least when it came to details.
But he sure has dealt a lot with a question of automotive design (not styling!) paradigm and consequently the revolution. Coming with the new ways of living, new ways of (personal) transportation & mobility ... coming with the future. At least in some areas around the globe if not everywhere.
He has been - and he still is - ahead of time. He is playing with concepts that are not eligible for today ... but they sure be in the future. Unfortunately the car industry poroduces products for today, and for tomorrow. And certainly not for day after tomorrow ... or for "the next year". First should come first.
What he brought to BMW -and have changed it forever - is the out-of-the-box thinking. Bangle was the fresh wind BMW needed at that time - not only in design area, but on the whole corporate level. He has shaken the house from base all up to the roof.
But usually - and unfortunately - Bangle is not judged from the academic, philosophical point of view but only from the styling / designing work he had impact on as Head of design BMW Group. Which was at least controversial if not aesthetically challenged.
When considering Bangle on a more academic level (and not just as a design manager or a designer), he is much more appreciated in the automotive design field. And a huge authority, I dare to say. But he is often misunderstood - either due to his listeners aren't able to catch up intellectually with him , or they found the theoretical & philosophical view on design and / or styling just a mambo - jumbo nonsense: since for most design / styling is a visual / graphic and not a vocal / spoken matter.
I guess Hussein can tell us some word on theoretical / philosophical view on design. Or even styling. About the limitations (being that functional, technological, financial, economical etc) of industrial design. The difference between theory and practice. Difference between dreams & reality. What makes an industrial designer a good industrial designer ... just his ideas alone, or also the fact how executable his ideas are from different points of vew (regarding the above mentioned limitations). Is that even designer's problem? Or is his task just to be a dreamer ... and then there are development & production engineers, design engineers, marketing & financial engineers etc to make his ideas possible - or at least set his limitation. Make a box, a frame for him within he can create.
Btw, Hussein, great to hear from you again ... Still @ Audi? Your study @ Pforzheim already finished?
I would hardly call some new creases on the body surface a design ... it's more a question of styling. Design is more or less the same as it was decades ago.
Automotive design is very limited by functionality. Form follows function. Anything beyond that is pure decoration ... pure styling.
Automobiles are still n-box 3D objects with 4 wheels, lights on the front & on the rear, and at least a windshield (if not all the greenhouse).
You can have a 1-box object like eg vans, or 2-box objects like wagons, hatches, SUVs. Or 3-box objects like eg. sedans. And all the cross-over shapes between that.
Sure materials used can be different: from various metals, leather, wood, cloth, plastic or CFRP, glass ... But the primal shape, design is still the same - since it follows function.
In industrial design in many cases objects are limited by function. Sure you can change the styling, the decoration a bit - but functionality has to stay intact. Just look at the various products: from TV, washing machine, fridge ... or even furniture, lamps etc etc. Not to mention the tools & machinery where all beyond pure functional design is just a make-up (eg. lawnmowers etc).
Bangle: a genius or a kook
Let's first discuss Bangle as designer ... Sure he (re)introduced some styling elements in the automotive design --- the Butt, the convex-concave surfaces etc --- making the styling, the surfaces more 3D. But he sure didn't changed the design paradigm as he had wished for.
His appearance may be quite kooky & eccentric ... strange & odd ... But Bangle sure is a genius. A great visionary ... a great thinker ... a great academic & philosopher. A great manager as well. A great boss. Not sure about being a great stylist - since his sense of aesthetics was a bit awkward, at least when it came to details.
But he sure has dealt a lot with a question of automotive design (not styling!) paradigm and consequently the revolution. Coming with the new ways of living, new ways of (personal) transportation & mobility ... coming with the future. At least in some areas around the globe if not everywhere.
He has been - and he still is - ahead of time. He is playing with concepts that are not eligible for today ... but they sure be in the future. Unfortunately the car industry poroduces products for today, and for tomorrow. And certainly not for day after tomorrow ... or for "the next year". First should come first.
What he brought to BMW -and have changed it forever - is the out-of-the-box thinking. Bangle was the fresh wind BMW needed at that time - not only in design area, but on the whole corporate level. He has shaken the house from base all up to the roof.
But usually - and unfortunately - Bangle is not judged from the academic, philosophical point of view but only from the styling / designing work he had impact on as Head of design BMW Group. Which was at least controversial if not aesthetically challenged.
When considering Bangle on a more academic level (and not just as a design manager or a designer), he is much more appreciated in the automotive design field. And a huge authority, I dare to say. But he is often misunderstood - either due to his listeners aren't able to catch up intellectually with him , or they found the theoretical & philosophical view on design and / or styling just a mambo - jumbo nonsense: since for most design / styling is a visual / graphic and not a vocal / spoken matter.
I guess Hussein can tell us some word on theoretical / philosophical view on design. Or even styling. About the limitations (being that functional, technological, financial, economical etc) of industrial design. The difference between theory and practice. Difference between dreams & reality. What makes an industrial designer a good industrial designer ... just his ideas alone, or also the fact how executable his ideas are from different points of vew (regarding the above mentioned limitations). Is that even designer's problem? Or is his task just to be a dreamer ... and then there are development & production engineers, design engineers, marketing & financial engineers etc to make his ideas possible - or at least set his limitation. Make a box, a frame for him within he can create.
Btw, Hussein, great to hear from you again ... Still @ Audi? Your study @ Pforzheim already finished?
D
Deleted member 25
I agree with the rest in that he is asking the right questions. BTW I loved his opinion on both Ferrari and Lamborghini, there's things you would want to do with the Lambo (hooker) that you just wouldn't with the Ferrari (wife).
EnI
Piston Pioneer
Bangleology. Lesson #1. Industrial design paradigm.
"Should" triangle: 3 limitations of "should"
Should = consumer's desire, need, wish, dream ...
Can = physical, technological, engineering, financial limitations ...
Must = limits set by legislation, standardization, homologation ...
Want = brand-identity limits; limited by (lack of) demand ...
SHOULD = WHY * HOW * X
WHY = Why I need, desire it? ... Eg due to several rational & emotional reasons, tangible & intangible ones ...
HOW = How will I satisfy my need, desire? Eg by purchasing a certain product.
X = ?
X(Bangle) = WHAT (What exactly will satisfy my need, desire?)
X(EnI) = ???
"Should" triangle: 3 limitations of "should"
Should = consumer's desire, need, wish, dream ...
Can = physical, technological, engineering, financial limitations ...
Must = limits set by legislation, standardization, homologation ...
Want = brand-identity limits; limited by (lack of) demand ...
SHOULD = WHY * HOW * X
WHY = Why I need, desire it? ... Eg due to several rational & emotional reasons, tangible & intangible ones ...
HOW = How will I satisfy my need, desire? Eg by purchasing a certain product.
X = ?
X(Bangle) = WHAT (What exactly will satisfy my need, desire?)
X(EnI) = ???
Centurion
Apex Apex Predator
What an obnoxious and confusing character. However it's a very fitting personality for a designer who doesn't subscribe to industry norms. I enjoy hearing his opinions however challenging they might be to decipher. Most designers with radical ideas are not kosher in character and their logical of thinking is sometimes irrational -- just like their designs.
Regardless of how much some of us might loathe his past designs, he's a legend in a making. He didn't just give BMW a new design language. He gave BMW a total brand revamp of which's effect are being tailed by Mercedes and others in the industry. What he achieved at BMW is a mountainous. It's near impossible to break the barrier at a global brand and gain the conviction of broad members for a controversial style remake. For you whom it escaped, fellow member schonguiz shared an insightful Bangle interview about two months ago. Check it out.
PS: I just watched the second clip in the first post. Jason Castriota is magnetic He could literary sell me a green toilet seat in a French patisserie. The voice, hand movement and confidence should be the envy of every salesman on this planet.
Your arguments < His counter arguments.
Regardless of how much some of us might loathe his past designs, he's a legend in a making. He didn't just give BMW a new design language. He gave BMW a total brand revamp of which's effect are being tailed by Mercedes and others in the industry. What he achieved at BMW is a mountainous. It's near impossible to break the barrier at a global brand and gain the conviction of broad members for a controversial style remake. For you whom it escaped, fellow member schonguiz shared an insightful Bangle interview about two months ago. Check it out.
PS: I just watched the second clip in the first post. Jason Castriota is magnetic
He could literary sell me a green toilet seat in a French patisserie. The voice, hand movement and confidence should be the envy of every salesman on this planet. Your arguments < His counter arguments.
Sunny
Premium
PS: I just watched the second clip in the first post. Jason Castriota is magnetic
Your arguments < His counter arguments.
Really? You are really easily taken for then if that is your idea of a good sales man. To me he came across nervous and defensive - signs of anything but self confidence. Of course Bangle was being a dick, in fact, I had no idea who he was before this and thought he was some intern Bangle was bullying and was feeling bad for him.
Beemer B773ER
Tire Trailblazer
Eh, you guys are too soft. I don't think Bangle was being a jerk to Jason Castriota at all, he was more like a professor/teacher who is probing his student, challenging his student to finally work his/her way to the correct answer. You can see that Jason Castriota hasn't taken much offense to it because at the end of the conversation when Chris acknowledges that Jason finally came to the right answer, Jason replies with a 'Thank You sir' ...very similar to a student/professor interaction.
I don't see anything offensive in it, just two very talented minds going back and forth to get to the core of what they're discussing.
As for Bangle's thinking. Even in some clips where he's not explicity talking about car design, for example, management structure and how the product should be at the core of it all (top-view/vortex structure), that is damn fascinating to listen to (especially from someone who's background is automotive design, not corporate management). It's no wonder his influence within BMW has been so profound.
It would be very intriguing and engaging to sit in at one of his presentations. Thanks guys for posting these clips!
I don't see anything offensive in it, just two very talented minds going back and forth to get to the core of what they're discussing.
As for Bangle's thinking. Even in some clips where he's not explicity talking about car design, for example, management structure and how the product should be at the core of it all (top-view/vortex structure), that is damn fascinating to listen to (especially from someone who's background is automotive design, not corporate management). It's no wonder his influence within BMW has been so profound.
It would be very intriguing and engaging to sit in at one of his presentations. Thanks guys for posting these clips!
HighestOfHigh
Cornering Kingpin
Bangle is an idiot!
Dummy is suppose to be out of the Automotive industry anyway. Needs to focus on Samsung (Report: Former BMW Stylist Chris Bangle Headed to Samsung - Rumor Central) instead of hating on other designers that designs are far more superior than his.
LaArtist
Wunderkind of Wheels
Oh god his treatment towards that young designer of saab and ignorance towards their history was so disturbing..
I mean if anything.. encourage him.. Instead he is putting him out of his comfort zone..
Rather just NOT talk to people then..
I hate him even more now..
I mean if anything.. encourage him.. Instead he is putting him out of his comfort zone..
Rather just NOT talk to people then..
I hate him even more now..
