Deep Dive: The Future Of BMW’s Project I Product Plans

[Betty Swollocks]

Could you give an example of a net price of a BMW being higher in the UK? I mean, after subtracting VAT and road vehicle license fees, which aren't added to US prices and are designed to pad government coffers (not those of BMW).

Back to the point, how is that 335i Luxury comparison between US and UK coming along?

The NET price of a 335i Luxury in the UK is equivalent to $47,400, which is more than the U.S. It also includes 4 years of servicing in the U.S. and a much better warranty.

Other models:

135i Coupe
UK $41,140 net
U.S. $39,300 msrp

M3 Coupe
UK $70,012 net
U.S. $60,100 msrp

M5
UK $93,503 net
U.S. $89,900 msrp

X5 M
UK $106,586 net
U.S. $88,850 msrp

640i Gran Coupe
UK $78,576 net
U.S. $76,000 msrp

So, UK cars consistently cost more than the U.S., along with the fact that servicing for four years is included in the U.S. price and a far superior warranty. The X5 M has a price difference of nearly $20,000.

So, I hope this satisfies your request.

 

[Guibo]

The NET price of a 335i Luxury in the UK is equivalent to $47,400, which is more than the U.S. It also includes 4 years of servicing in the U.S. and a much better warranty.

Other models:

135i Coupe
UK $41,140 net
U.S. $39,300 msrp

M3 Coupe
UK $70,012 net
U.S. $60,100 msrp

M5
UK $93,503 net
U.S. $89,900 msrp

X5 M
UK $106,586 net
U.S. $88,850 msrp

640i Gran Coupe
UK $78,576 net
U.S. $76,000 msrp

So, UK cars consistently cost more than the U.S., along with the fact that servicing for four years is included in the U.S. price and a far superior warranty. The X5 M has a price difference of nearly $20,000.

So, I hope this satisfies your request.

When I subtract the 645 GBP for road license fee, then subtract 20% for VAT on the 135i, I get a price in £25,604, or $39,322. That isn't so different from the US price. Want to bet that far more of those UK 1ers will be fleet/company cars that benefit from discounting than in the US, where the cars are bought outright? That should more than account for the $22 difference.

M5:
£73,065 - 645 (-VLF), x 0.8 (-VAT) = £57936 = $89,001. Compare to $89,900 US MSRP.

640i Gran Coupe
£61,390 - 645, x 0.8 = £48,596 = $74,653. Compare to $76,000 US MSRP.

But you've chosen some fringe players in the overall profit game for both countries. Why not use an example that is more relevant to the overall profit margins.

328i
£29,065 - VAT/VLF = £22,736 = $34,927. Compare to $34,900. Big difference? Could be, in favor of US profit margins once you account for discounted 3-Series fleet/company sales in the UK.

528i
£33,615 - VAT/VLF = £26,376 = $40,518. Compare to $46,900 US MSRP. Many of these in the UK will be used as company cars or even police vehicles. You won't find many (if any) municipalities in the US that use 5ers as police/emergency vehicles. The city councils would be skinned alive, unless they could convince residents that BMW underbid, say, Ford/GM. In which case the purchase price will be far less than what a customer actually pays.

I'm not sure that BMW AG is the one underwriting servicing/warranty costs. That is usually done through BMW NA, which is a separate entitey from BMW AG.

 

[Giannis]

Thread cleaned.

Discussion on pricing (when backed up with solid arguments) is welcome.

Personal insults are not. Agressive posts are not.

You have been asked to keep it civil more than 5 times in this thread. The next time this thread will require cleaning, it will be locked permanently.

Please use the PM system to solve any personal disputes, and/or create a new thread if you want to discuss a different topic.

Thank you.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Rather than discuss pricing in this thread and disrupt it, I invite Guibo to contribute to this thread.

http://www.germancarforum.com/community/threads/uk-us-prices.44594/


With regards the i3, I have a VW Up! on order. I love the idea of a small city car which literally sips fuel. I love all forms of motoring, not just high speed autobahn cruising, but nipping through the city streets knowing I'm getting 4 l/100km or 70mpg. My Ford Ka is one of the most satisfying cars I have ever driven. It's lack of grip is a hoot on bends and roundabouts. The i3 is a very welcome addition to the BMW portfolio. I hope it's a success.

 

[Deckhook]

Will be interesting to see how BMW promotes their technology on this years Olympic Games and will this renew interest on the whole EV in the UK in particular?

 

[Guibo]

I believe Fifthgear also ran a piece on them and came to the same conclusion. In this country we aren't yet set up to make it viable as an alternative.

Ok, thanks. I couldn't find the episode, but from the outtakes of an electric car episode on youtube, Tiff doesn't seem like the type to buy an electric city car. Clarkson for his part seems to have railed against "green" tech for quite some time too. Probably most serious customers will look beyond a review or two when it comes time to make a purchasing decision.


I think this article by Georg Kacher himself might clear up some of the confusion around this 100,000 figure:

"09 March 2012
The BMW i programme is so big one could almost be forgiven for calling it the reinvention of the motor car. Not only because of the revolutionary engineering and design concept, but also because of the scale of the whole operation. The installed production capacity will stretch close to 100,000 units per year, the expertise in the field of carbonfibre, battery technology and performance electronics is believed to yield a significant competitive advantage."
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Secret...duction-electric-i3-hatchback-coming-in-2013/

 

[Deckhook]

What, two car nuts not into the whole EV thing........ how strange. Seriously Guibo it's not the technology that at fault here it's just that few if any have the infrastructure to make it a true alternative to fossel fuel. Fill your fuel tank takes all of 5 minutes compared to 1 hr at best with an EV and that's if you find one handy (speaking UK here). When the changing technology gets up to speed and they are plentiful then I and the rest of the petrol head world will buy into the whole idea but I don't think this will happen for quite a few years.

 

[Guibo]

I'm not looking for people to buy into the whole idea. Just remarking that TV hosts might not be the best gauge of (nor guide for) consumer interest. It does take a while to charge up one's electric car, but considering the average UK daily commute is, what, 9-10 miles(?), this isn't really a concern. For some people, the range on the i3 will be more than enough. (Do note that I'm stressing "some." Nowhere am I implying anything like "most" or even "a signficant amount." With planned sales of 30k, the i3 is clearly not a mainstream car, but (as has been said) a niche vehicle.)

 

[Deckhook]

I'm wondering where did you come up with the whole 9-10mile commute figure?

Anyhow if that's the case it still has it's limitations as a viable alternative to a normal car because longer journeys beyond half it's range will require charging that's far more time consuming that is if the place you are visiting has a quick charging site, otherwise you may as well book into a B&B for the long haul.

I'm sorry but at the moment totally electric cars are a novelty at best for someone to run along side a normal car and as such I think they might work well but they won't replace fossel fuel any time soon. In fact I reckon they are only a stop gap till something more suitable is found.

 

[Guibo]

I'm wondering where did you come up with the whole 9-10mile commute figure?
Anyhow if that's the case it still has it's limitations as a viable alternative to a normal car because longer journeys beyond half it's range will require charging that's far more time consuming that is if the place you are visiting has a quick charging site, otherwise you may as well book into a B&B for the long haul.

Read it awhile ago. Can't find it know, but this is from a report published by the Department for Transport:
"According to the NTS, the average length of a commuting trip increased by 5%, from 8.2 miles in 1995/97 to 8.6 miles in 2009."
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/statistics/series/national-travel-survey/commuting.pdf

Variations on this subject include:
"in the UK 80% of the population drive less than 30 miles per day."
http://www.thechargingpoint.com/manufacturers/Nissan/leaf-roadtest.html#roadTest

With regard to feasability of the i3, I think we've covered the point that BMW don't need to rely on the UK market for any significant portion of sales.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

The exemption from London's congestion zone charge is a big attraction for the i3.

 

[Deckhook]

Guibo you seem to be totally missing the point I was making, either unintentional or deliberate because you know I'm right. If your journey is of greater distant than half the i3's range then it's not an alternative to a normal car end of story, so at best it's a second/third car in the family which has always been my argument to it not being on the radar of Golf/Focus owners.

As an inner city runabout it would be brilliant and I'm betting that's how it will be sold but definitely not as some new found mode of transport that replaces all others.

 

[Guibo]

Guibo you seem to be totally missing the point I was making, either unintentional or deliberate because you know I'm right. If your journey is of greater distant than half the i3's range then it's not an alternative to a normal car end of story, so at best it's a second/third car in the family which has always been my argument to it not being on the radar of Golf/Focus owners.

As an inner city runabout it would be brilliant and I'm betting that's how it will be sold but definitely not as some new found mode of transport that replaces all others.

I didn't miss your point. As I already said repeatedly, the i3 is not targeted to meet the needs of even a large portion of the buying public. I'm wondering if you've understood mine: There are people for whom a journey of greater distance than half the i3's range is not an issue.

You are aware that some Focus/Golfs already are second cars in a family, right? My question, which I haven't seen you yet answer and which is relevant to the i3 hitting sales goals, is: Do you think it's totally unreasonable that 0.5% of Focus/Golf owners (and probably closer to .1% when all other similar cars are taken into account) just might consider the i3 a viable product when moving onto more expensive vehicles? You seem to be operating on the premise that Focus/Golf owners are automatically predisposed to buying Focus/Golfs forever, or that when it comes time to trading up, they will automatically go for something like a 335i. Some might, but I'm betting some won't. Within this group will be those with an eye toward efficiency over performance.
When you say it's "not on the radar of Golf/Focus owners," what % of Golf/Focus owners are you talking about? If you say most (50+%), then I have already agreed and have not "missed the point." On this, you cannot be "right" if I've never disagreed. If you say it's not on the radar of even a small portion of Golf/Focus owners (say, 5-10%), then again, I have agreed and have not "missed the point." But if you say it's absolutely 0.000% (ie, it could never, ever be on any Golf/Focus owner's radar), then I would like to know on what logical basis you have such a position.

Nobody here is saying the i3 is some new found mode of transport that replaces all others. It doesn't have to be to acheive its target of 30k. Congestion charge into London might indeed be a factor in the i3's success (if any) in the UK.

 

[Deckhook]

So you think that an average journey of 30miles means they won't take longer ones of say 100 or more. lol

Who's to say the Focus or Golf isn't the second car, definitely not me because chances are that's most likely but I argue that I doubt too many would trade in their Focus or Golf and run to 335i prices, in other words almost double the price of your average Focus/Golf on a second car which has such limited practicality in terms of use on anything other than the shortest of journeys.

So to answer your 0.5%, not even close, in fact I would say add a couple or three zeros in there might be nearer the truth. lol

Hold on I think I am being too generous with my estimates.

 

[Guibo]

So you think that an average journey of 30miles means they won't take longer ones of say 100 or more. lol

Who's to say the Focus or Golf isn't the second car, definitely not me because chances are that's most likely but I argue that I doubt too many would trade in their Focus or Golf and run to 335i prices, in other words almost double the price of your average Focus/Golf on a second car which has such limited practicality in terms of use on anything other than the shortest of journeys.

So to answer your 0.5%, not even close, in fact I would say add a couple or three zeros in there might be nearer the truth. lol

Nope, never said that. You're jumping to conclusions here. I'm saying there will be some people for whom a journey of 100+ miles would be so rare that it might just make more sense to rent a car on the rare occasion that they go, rather than pay for fuel and congestion charges on a daily basis.

When you say that it's most likely that the Focus/Golf isn't the second car, you've already allowed that perhaps 49% are 2nd or even 3rd cars. That would be nearly 1M cars right there.

When you say you "doubt too many", what % are you talking about? I never said "too many" would make the jump. Without any surveys to suggest otherwise, you simply cannot know. It's reasonable to expect that families, having improved their income during the 4 years of a typical car loan/lease, would move onto something more expensive. It happens all the time. Why do you think this is totally impossible?

We can add a couple zeros to the figure and now you're talking about 10,000 Focus/Golf owners. You've already met 1/3rd of BMW's target within only 2 brands. Now factor in 5M+ Corolla/Sentra/Prius/Civic/Cruze/Mazda3/Hyundai/Kia/Dacia/Skoda/SEAT/A3/1er/Vauxhall/Opel/etc owners, multiply by 0.005 and what do you get? 25,000. Now we are talking 35,000 units, already in excess of BMW's planned target. And you haven't even factored in the big saloon/SUV owners that you think will make up the vast majority (well over 50%) of i3 buyers. At a conservative 15,000 units using the original estimate, you're now at 50k units.

Again, I'm not saying BMW will definitely meet the target. They could be short by several thousand for all we know. The point I'm trying to make is that it's feasible even with extremely small cross-sections of other demographics. One does not have to think that your typical 335i buyer has to make the jump to add any meaningful number of i3 sales.

 

[Deckhook]

Nope, never said that. You're jumping to conclusions here. I'm saying there will be some people for whom a journey of 100+ miles would be so rare that it might just make more sense to rent a car on the rare occasion that they go, rather than pay for fuel and congestion charges on a daily basis.

When you say that it's most likely that the Focus/Golf isn't the second car, you've already allowed that perhaps 49% are 2nd or even 3rd cars. That would be nearly 1M cars right there.

When you say you "doubt too many", what % are you talking about? I never said "too many" would make the jump. Without any surveys to suggest otherwise, you simply cannot know. It's reasonable to expect that families, having improved their income during the 4 years of a typical car loan/lease, would move onto something more expensive. It happens all the time. Why do you think this is totally impossible?

We can add a couple zeros to the figure and now you're talking about 10,000 Focus/Golf owners. You've already met 1/3rd of BMW's target within only 2 brands. Now factor in 5M+ Corolla/Sentra/Prius/Civic/Cruze/Mazda3/Hyundai/Kia/Dacia/Skoda/SEAT/A3/1er/Vauxhall/Opel/etc owners, multiply by 0.005 and what do you get? 25,000. Now we are talking 35,000 units, already in excess of BMW's planned target. And you haven't even factored in the big saloon/SUV owners that you think will make up the vast majority (well over 50%) of i3 buyers. At a conservative 15,000 units using the original estimate, you're now at 50k units.

Again, I'm not saying BMW will definitely meet the target. They could be short by several thousand for all we know. The point I'm trying to make is that it's feasible even with extremely small cross-sections of other demographics. One does not have to think that your typical 335i buyer has to make the jump to add any meaningful number of i3 sales.

Firstly, I didn't say that Focus/Golf wouldnt possibly be their second/third car, secondly those 2 or 3 zeros were me being very generous and if you weren't so determined to argue your point home and sat back and thought this through you would realise just how stupid the idea of someone think 'Honey, let's sale the Focus and go into debt to the hilt to get one of these new i3s because we'll save some road tax and a grand or so a year on fuel'

Then there is your comment of renting a car for those occasions when you need to travel further? Seriously Guibo this remark made me laugh out loud, I can't believe that you really think this will happen considering they've already sold their sole to get the i3 in the first place.

Enough of this nonsense, the i3 is aimed squarely at the upwardly mobile crowd who have an A8, 7er, S-class in the garage and their second car is already approaching that of the i3. I wish BMW all the success with their i range but until the batteries and charging improves to the kind of level that it's not time consuming waiting while it fully charges they will remain a novelty for the financially well off.

 

[Guibo]

Firstly, I didn't say that Focus/Golf wouldnt possibly be their second/third car, secondly those 2 or 3 zeros were me being very generous and if you weren't so determined to argue your point home and sat back and thought this through you would realise just how stupid the idea of someone think 'Honey, let's sale the Focus and go into debt to the hilt to get one of these new i3s because we'll save some road tax and a grand or so a year on fuel'

Then there is your comment of renting a car for those occasions when you need to travel further? Seriously Guibo this remark made me laugh out loud, I can't believe that you really think this will happen considering they've already sold their sole to get the i3 in the first place.

Enough of this nonsense, the i3 is aimed squarely at the upwardly mobile crowd who have an A8, 7er, S-class in the garage and their second car is already approaching that of the i3. I wish BMW all the success with their i range but until the batteries and charging improves to the kind of level that it's not time consuming waiting while it fully charges they will remain a novelty for the financially well off.

If you allow that the Focus/Golf might already be a second/third car, then your point about the i3 being a second/third car is also moot. Again, your quote there implies I'm talking about those who can afford nothing else beyond the current Focus they already have. Where, in all of my posts, did I say this is necessarily the case? As I said in previous posts, some of these Focus owners will have amassed enough income to afford a more expensive car. Is it still your premise that Focus drivers buy/own only Focuses for the rest of their lives? Some of these Focus owners will keep the Focus and start making payments on more expensive cars, as their budgets allow. They are not necessarily trading anything when their leases are up.
2 or 3 zeroes were you being "generous"...or you could have been stingy. You have no way of knowing for sure, do you? Even using your 2 "generous" zeroes, I showed that BMW can even exceed their sales goal. Does not even 0.4 qualify as being "insignificant enough to register," or are you determined to add zeros until you meet your self-fulfilling prophecy that the i3 can't possibly hit its sales targets?

I'm not talking about people who have to sell their soul in the first place. Wouldn't you have likewise had to sell your soul to buy a 335i which isn't exactly cheap, has no gov't 5k incentive, and upon which fuel and CO2 tax must still be paid as well as congestion charge into London? If we're going to play the "I could get These Cars for the price of That Car" game, then there are plenty of sub-2k BMWs for sale that will get you 100 miles, if you need them. Why would anyone buy a 335i when for the same price you could get a 316d and with the left over money buy a E46 M3 or E39 M5 which have real M-car kudos? See, variations on this theme can be played forever.

Ok, I get it. Under no circumstance do you see BMW ever hitting 30k with the i3 in the near future. This is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. Just remember that it was your opinion that Kacher's upward revision by 233% could have been the result of the BMW/VW/SGL deal (which turns out not to be the case), rather than the more likely scenario that Kacher may have mixed up his estimates, just like he had done with the ZR1 (which appears to be precisely the case again with the i3).

 

[Giannis]

Ok, guys, you are just running in circles. This conversation won't lead anywhere, so let's stop it here. I hope I won't have to clean this thread again!

 

[Rainer271]

BMW reportedly planning i5/i7 plug-in hybrid electric model for 2018 release to rival Tesla Model S
Will be based on the next-gen 5-Series
A new rumor has emerged indicating BMW is cooking up an i5/i7 model to take on the Tesla Model S.

According to CAR, Bavaria's rival for the Model S is codenamed F18 PHEV and will be based on the next generation 5-Series in long wheelbase specification, suitable for accommodating the battery pack. While the Tesla Model S is a fully electric vehicle, BMW's competitor will take the shape of a PHEV (plug-in hybrid electric vehicle) but it's being described as primarily an electric vehicle equipped with a more powerful range-extending combustion engine. It will be aimed primarily to North America and China and its design will be a mixture of the current 6-Series Gran Coupe and next-gen 7-Series.

It is believed the model will be able to provide three different driving modes: FWD on electric power, RWD on electric power and AWD in hybrid mode. Instead of the i8's three-cylinder 1.5-liter engine, the car will adopt a larger four-cylinder which should develop about 245 HP (180 kW) and send power through a six-speed automatic gearbox. It will work with a front-mounted electric motor rated at 204 HP (150 kW) and a rear-mounted electric motor developing 95 HP (70 kW) which would enable the model to have a combined output of 544 HP (400 kW).

The report also mentions BMW is developing the model to run primarily as an EV with all-electric range of up to 80 miles (129 km) while the combustion engine will allegedly be programmed to to kick in after the car hits 40 mph (64 km/h).

As a final note, CAR says a concept previewing the i5/i7 could be introduced in September at the Frankfurt Motor Show.

Source: carmagazine.co.uk

 

[EnI]

This car the Car Magazine is describing is the next gen 5er eDrive model (PHEV).

New BMW i models will be BEV or BEVx, except for i8 sports coupe which in this generation is a PHEV, and will become BEV in some next generation when advanced batteries are available for mass use, and compatible fast-charging network is completely ready.

There will be lots of PHEVs available in the core BMW brand product line, and there will also be MINI & Rolls-Royce PHEVs offered in the future.