Israeli War!

[SDNR]

IE and Osna are both absolutely correct on this ...there are no real "good guys" and "bad guys" in this conflict ...except for the radical terrorist organizations and their supporters who quietly "fan the flames" in the background.

But one thing, IE, you suggest that the Israeli war machine will crush any opposition ......but I would suggest it's only a matter of time before one of Israel's many enemies finally uses a nuclear weapon against them. Unlike the west, where nukes are seen as a deterrent, in this new century of middle-eastern extremist violence, fueled by a perverted form of religious fundamentalism, nukes are not viewed as a mere deterrent ...but rather, they are seen as the solution to the problem.

 

[Snake Vargas]

That would be a sad, sad day. I can only expect that the Israelis would respond in kind. Who knows what would happen after that.

Yeah, it's much more complex than one people group trying to eradicate another, or someone occupying someone's land.

 

[DocM]

hey guys,
lebanon remains under siege for the third day, I no longer have internet at home, i'm logging on from the connection in the hospital. the day started out quiet this morning, but now the bombing has intensified significantly this afternoon. In a town in the south 12 children were killed as they were trying to flee their homes. Went and got supplies from the local supermarket, people are really scared...they're buying supplies like there is no tomorrow. and we might have fuel shortage soon as the israelis are now targeting gas stations...
my family is seriously considering moving back to canada ( we also have canadian citizenship) but getting out of the country is very difficult and risky at the same time
still in beirut
DocM

 

[Snake Vargas]

Regardless of what we may have to say about the political situation, have no doubt that we wish you and anyone else in Lebanon safety and peace.

We hope to hear from you if it's safe convenient to do so. Take care, and let us know how it goes.

 

[SDNR]

I agree ..be careful DocM

....we sure live in a crazy world.

 

[LaArtist]

let me put it down for you all once and all..
for me the existance of the state israel is from the start WRONG..
what the hell can ppl expect when the state is built on false grounds..

other than that the israeli war machine is made with US money..
no single country could win a war against israel..in that region.. but remember there are several countrys and no superpower..not even the US is invincible..
......

i have a theory..that some of you might belive is crazy.. but still here it is:

I belive that the US has alot to do with these attacks.. i think they told israel that they can go ahead with these attacks..and no one will bother them..
they did this beacuse of iran.. hizbollah is a shia muslim group.. and iran is a shiamuslim country.. i belive that the US are just waiting to see any kind of reaction from iran.. where they either offically try to help hizbollah/lebanon.. or just supply weapons to them..
if Iran does this.. i belive the US will have a reason to attack iran.. a reason they have been searching for desperetly the past months..

now it remains to see if iran are stupid enough to fall for this..

PS
DocM be safe man..i really really hope that there wont be any further probs for you and your fam.. take care man

 

[Michael]

......

i have a theory..that some of you might belive is crazy.. but still here it is:

I belive that the US has alot to do with these attacks.. i think they told israel that they can go ahead with these attacks..and no one will bother them..
they did this beacuse of iran.. hizbollah is a shia muslim group.. and iran is a shiamuslim country.. i belive that the US are just waiting to see any kind of reaction from iran.. where they either offically try to help hizbollah/lebanon.. or just supply weapons to them..
if Iran does this.. i belive the US will have a reason to attack iran.. a reason they have been searching for desperetly the past months..

now it remains to see if iran are stupid enough to fall for this..

PS
DocM be safe man..i really really hope that there wont be any further probs for you and your fam.. take care man

First and foremost I want to repeat what I said before to DocM. I hope you stay safe and make sure you try to get out of trouble. I pray for a good outcome from this whole situation.

On to The Artist Theory...

Artist I don't think that is a crazy theory, as a matter of fact, it may be true. We will never know. However, I do think that the US is waiting to see what Iran does. Why? Well not necessarily to attack them--even though this is a possibility--but maybe to have a very good case against them so that they can bring it up agains the UN. Member states in the UN may see this as evidence of Iran and their intentions for the future and further their search or progres report. All in all, the US has a lot to do with this whether they like it or not. I truly think that they are getting assistance in logistics from the US in some way or form.

However, like I said in the past post, I really hope that the US does not make the same mistake they made with Nixon, where in assisting the Israeli's the world saw very very clearly that they were flying in ammunition, supplies, etc.

Today I was watching CNN and I saw the ambassador to Israel talking, and he was basically saying that he agreed with Russia and China in that their force is excessive, but that he would say that it is not excessive if it were to be compared to force used by Russia or China defending themselves. So, they are trying to play politics when people are dying. They are trying to say that they are completely justified because in their view they are just denting the enemy as compared to the US, Russia, or China would be demolishing their enemy. I think they are missing the point here. I don't think you can measure things like these in proportion but rather you should take into consideration the loss of life that is happening.

 

[Centurion]

A friend of mine is in Lebanon and I hope she is all right. The Swedish government will be sending over a plane there to get its citizens back from all the destruction and agony down there.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

The Israeli war machine exists only because of the US not because of the Israeli's own competence, intelligence or military acumen. Talking as if the US and Israeli army's are competely independent is a joke. They are one and the same.

This has to be one of the most stupid things I've heard of this forum.
Again learn some history.

The roots of todays Israeli war machine goes back to a paramilitary force existing since the 1920s.

They were succesfull in guerilla/terorist warfare against the british after WW II (as an irony of fate, the arab terorist organisation had copied their Modus Operandi).

There was initial retiscence from the US in recocginizing Israel.
Even Marshall said that the new State of Israel would be defeated within two weeks.

Initially Israel bough equipament from Czechoslovakia. Also the ever increasing number of immigrants from Europe and the rest of the world turned the tide in
their favor in the 1948 war.

The alliance with western powers camed in 1956 with the Suez crisis.
But France and Britain were Israel's allies.
The US and Soviet Union both condemned the war, more precisely the frech-british-israelian intervention.

After that the arab countries tied the relations with Sovied Union/Eastern Block and thus as a counter ballance the US tied the relations with Israel.

While the majority of weapons are bought from the USA, and the army is well
funded and has acces to the latest and/or best weapons in the world, it's pure stupidity to say the US and Israel armies are one and the same.

Army is manditory in Israel. Once men and women (or better said teenage boys and girls) reach the age of 18, they are drafted, and for the next 3 years they become part of the IDF.

After the 3 year stage is over they become reserves, and might one they be used again.

While the Israeli army is not quantity, it is about quality. And in this area they
are perhaps the finest in the world.

let me put it down for you all once and all..
for me the existance of the state israel is from the start WRONG..
what the hell can ppl expect when the state is built on false grounds..

other than that the israeli war machine is made with US money..
no single country could win a war against israel..in that region.. but remember there are several countrys and no superpower..not even the US is invincible..
......

i have a theory..that some of you might belive is crazy.. but still here it is:

I belive that the US has alot to do with these attacks.. i think they told israel that they can go ahead with these attacks..and no one will bother them..
they did this beacuse of iran.. hizbollah is a shia muslim group.. and iran is a shiamuslim country.. i belive that the US are just waiting to see any kind of reaction from iran.. where they either offically try to help hizbollah/lebanon.. or just supply weapons to them..
if Iran does this.. i belive the US will have a reason to attack iran.. a reason they have been searching for desperetly the past months..

now it remains to see if iran are stupid enough to fall for this..

PS
DocM be safe man..i really really hope that there wont be any further probs for you and your fam.. take care man

1.
Not only that, in the area, there is no one single power that can defeat Israel, but there is also no alliance that can do so either.

If you would have bothered to learn a little history that you have known that the Israel fought (mostly by itself, apart from the 1956 Suez War) against alliences of arab states, and won.

And while Israel received suport from the USA, since the 60s, the arab countries received suport from the Soviet Union/Easthern block.

And while they posesed more men AND equipament/weapons/war material in wars such the 6 Days war and Yom Kippur war, they were defeated/humiliated by Israel.

2.
Don't comfuse hizbollah with Lebanon. Big mistake.
Hizbollah is a terorist organisation, witch probably because of Syria has seats in the parliament.
This is not a war against Lebanon in the classical sense, this is a war (also psyhological) against such terorist organizations and countries that suport them.

3.
Why is it that is that "the existance of the state israel is from the start WRONG.." ?!

"what the hell can ppl expect when the state is built on false grounds.."

What are these false grounds ?!

 

[Ahmed]

This is not a war against Lebanon in the classical sense, this is a war (also psyhological) against such terorist organizations and countries that suport them.

Right thats why theyre attacking Lebanons infastructure, or is it hizbollas infastructure theyre trying to hit but keep on missing? I dont know.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

I don't suport things like this, what Israel is doing right now.
But hizbollah is not an inocent organization either.

There are terorist who think killing inocents is OK, and there are the military hawks/crack heads who belive killing inocent in fighting these therorist is OK.

As I've said it before both are wrong, both sides are criminals.
And if these events show anything is that inocents on parts will be the ones paing the price.

 

[Michael]

IE you are right many of the things you have said. I for one do not support any terrorist organization, however, I do think that the Israel has passed what I would consider a 'reasonable line.'

I took a Middle Eastern class, and if you would've read my post, you would see that I posted something in reference to the Arab-Israeli War and Nixon. One thing I learned, in my class, was that in one of the Arab-Israeli Wars, Israel almost lost, if it wasn't for the US. Could you confirm this for me?

 

[LaArtist]

so IE you are giving me history lessons..let me give you a lesson in religion..wich is my area..

According to the jewish belive the land of israel will be given back to the jews by the hand of god.. and upon this, the messiahs will come..

now the land was not given to the jews via gods hands..it was given by mans hand, many belive ( even jewish ortodoxs)..
but the majority and those with power are the zionist jews..wich are those who got israel from the UN and made an appeal on the land.

now if you ask a jew why hasent your messiahs come yet..you now have your land.. the ortodox say the land israel is not given to us by god yet.. and the way we got it is wrong.. in other words there are jews that are against the state of israel..

and if you ask the ordinary jews ( zionist and so on) the answer is diffrent..from case to case..but many say that the whole land of israel like it was some 2000 years ago arent in our possesion and until that day our messiahs cant come.
...
So you ask me how its wrong.. its wrong cause their belive dont want it to exist this way.. and its wrong cause ppl lived there and have been pushed out by MAN to make way for the jews.. thats why the existence of the state israel is wrong in my eyes.

Plus there is no freakin way that you can justify taking back land wich belonged to your ppl some 2000 years ago..
if so the americans can return america to the Native indians..

PS
So according to you there is no way that israel can be defeated..no power in the world..or no alliance can ever do that??.. are you really so naive

 

[Imhotep Evil]

IE you are right many of the things you have said. I for one do not support any terrorist organization, however, I do think that the Israel has passed what I would consider a 'reasonable line.'

I took a Middle Eastern class, and if you would've read my post, you would see that I posted something in reference to the Arab-Israeli War and Nixon. One thing I learned, in my class, was that in one of the Arab-Israeli Wars, Israel almost lost, if it wasn't for the US. Could you confirm this for me?

I don't know exactly, to my knowledge there 2 crises for Israel.
One was in the 1948(/49) war.

Initially the Israel seemed lost, but after major influx of population they've won and weapons.
Since both the US and Soviet Union had recognized Israel, it had International moral suport.

Also there was the Yom Kippur war. Initally the arab alliance had upper hand
thanks to the element of surprise, thus ocupying/liberating/takeing back important teritories.

If think it was at this point that H. Kissinger said that for every israelian airplaine that arabs claimed to have taken down, the US will replace it.

Since the 60s the US had become desperate, some might say, in preserving Israel.

While there was suport in one way or another for Israel from some part of the american population (jewish mostly) it was only after the Soviets stepped in, that a strong Israel had becomed an american necesity.

That american suport for Israel led to the first Oil Crise.
Eventually the USA and Soviet Union made a common front to end the war.

But at this point of the war the situation was reversed.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

so IE you are giving me history lessons..let me give you a lesson in religion..wich is my area..

According to the jewish belive the land of israel will be given back to the jews by the hand of god.. and upon this, the messiahs will come..

now the land was not given to the jews via gods hands..it was given by mans hand, many belive ( even jewish ortodoxs)..
but the majority and those with power are the zionist jews..wich are those who got israel from the UN and made an appeal on the land.

now if you ask a jew why hasent your messiahs come yet..you now have your land.. the ortodox say the land israel is not given to us by god yet.. and the way we got it is wrong.. in other words there are jews that are against the state of israel..

and if you ask the ordinary jews ( zionist and so on) the answer is diffrent..from case to case..but many say that the whole land of israel like it was some 2000 years ago arent in our possesion and until that day our messiahs cant come.
...
So you ask me how its wrong.. its wrong cause their belive dont want it to exist this way.. and its wrong cause ppl lived there and have been pushed out by MAN to make way for the jews.. thats why the existence of the state israel is wrong in my eyes.

While I have to agree with several of the things you're saying, the argument about religion is very weak.
Many people don't realy take the scripures literaly.

There are also conservative, liberal, agnostic and atheist jews with (very) different views from the orthodox jews.

Also, it wasn't just the UN that gave the jews Israel, it was also their victory in the 1948/49 war, and the wars that followed.

Also (modern) nation-states were not created by religion. While religion played a part, it was not the primordial factor. Culture-civilization and a (sum of) cetralizing force(s) were the primordial factors.

Plus there is no freakin way that you can justify taking back land wich belonged to your ppl some 2000 years ago..
if so the americans can return america to the Native indians..

This is the main issue, the main problem.
Because jews can say take a look at spanish history.
The only true solution for the future is the existence of both Israel and Palestine.
And maybe Jerusalem should be an opend international free city, belonging to none yet to all.

PS
So according to you there is no way that israel can be defeated..no power in the world..or no alliance can ever do that??.. are you really so naive

I've said, no power/alliance in the region.

 

[SDNR]

I'm just curious, do we have any Jewish members on our forum ....there surely must be some ...I would be interested to read comments from their point-of-view.

PS, my grandfather was Jewish ...but I am not ..so that probably doesn't count.

 

[LaArtist]

Well im glad that we can agree on things here..
but the religon point of view isnt weak in this case..as the appeal made for the land of israel is based on religous belives..
if they didnt care about religion..or didnt take it word for word..they could have moved to Argentina or Uganda ( i guess cant remember properly) wich was also 2 other options given to the jews at that time..

 

[Alx]

I'm just curious, do we have any Jewish members on our forum ....there surely must be some ...I would be interested to read comments from their point-of-view.

PS, my grandfather was Jewish ...but I am not ..so that probably doesn't count.

Im Jewish, but not religious, its a sensitive subject for i feel for both parties as far as innocent parties getting hurt are concerned. But i stay away from threads like this and personally dont like them on the forum, they can get real ugly real fast and very offensive as well. People DO take this VERY personally. And in my opinion there is no need for that on a car forum.

Nontheless this thread exists and so does the conversation.

I stated my thought about war in the last paragraph, and thats all im going to say.

At the end this thread will not solve nor bring forth a resolution to the situation, so i dont choose to get involved this topic/thread. A real black and white conversation on this topic will DEFINATLEY end up offending both parties and as i said on a car forum, that is the last thing we need.

 

[Michael]

Im Jewish, but not religious, its a sensitive subject for i feel for both parties as far as innocent parties getting hurt are concerned. But i stay away from threads like this and personally dont like them on the forum, they can get real ugly real fast and very offensive as well. People DO take this VERY personally. And in my opinion there is no need for that on a car forum.

Nontheless this thread exists and so does the conversation.

I stated my thought about war in the last paragraph, and thats all im going to say.

At the end this thread will not solve nor bring forth a resolution to the situation, so i dont choose to get involved this topic/thread. A real black and white conversation on this topic will DEFINATLEY end up offending both parties and as i said on a car forum, that is the last thing we need.

Alex you are right in you assertion. I am responsible for this thread, and have been watching it. If it does get worse than what is it I will close it immediately.

If anyone does want this thread closed please let me know.

 

[Michael]

Well im glad that we can agree on things here..
but the religon point of view isnt weak in this case..as the appeal made for the land of israel is based on religous belives..
if they didnt care about religion..or didnt take it word for word..they could have moved to Argentina or Uganda ( i guess cant remember properly) wich was also 2 other options given to the jews at that time..

Artist I think you are right in your assertion here, however, I can't help but say that I don't think many people today in days, or at least all of them, take religion the way some of these fundamentalist do. In addition to this, I would go as far as saying that I don't think many that are fighting on both sides are truly under the belief that they are trying to preserve the promise land. I think some just fight to fight. Just like with American Soldiers that are fighting in Iraq. Some are there because they have to be there, and others because they want to be there. Some believe they are fighting for the better good of our country, others could care less about our country and are just there because they are ruthless, or feel they have purpose in life, and the list goes on.

However, in Israel I know that everyone, or at least almost everyone, have to join the military, but I still think that what I said above exists today in day.

People are not as patriotic as they used to be. War used to be glorious, at least the majority thought it was. After the great wars of our time--which there have been many--I think the masses have come to realize that in some instances people are fighting just because they despise their enemy not because of self preservation. 0.02 cents