Motor Trend Comparison: 2011 Mustang GT vs 2011 BMW M3

[Mr Robert]

I'm not sure "better" technology is what is needed for the Mustang. At least not for me. To me, it has more to do with basic character. And thank god they still make cars different. I would never dream of crying for a more "European" Mustang and at the same time, I have no understanding, what so ever, for people wanting to destroy the M3 by changing it's character into something completely different.

 

[rollo]

I don't think anyone here has suggested that the "character" of the M3 should be changed, hell no. What I have suggested is that some here, you frankly and specifically, have been dismissive about the positive attributes of the new GT. The GT probably has a very different driving character than the M3, but it does compete better than anyone would have thought. And with other cars (by the numbers) that costs 10's of thousands more. It's not blasphemy to admire it, even in the company of the almighty M3.

 

[Zafiro]

My neighbour has supertuned Mustang. And he drive off early in the morning to work and the engine sound wake me up every single morning. Thats why I hate Mustang's

 

[Mr Robert]

I don't think anyone here has suggested that the "character" of the M3 should be changed, hell no. What I have suggested is that some here, you frankly and specifically, have been dismissive about the positive attributes of the new GT. The GT probably has a very different driving character than the M3, but it does compete better than anyone would have thought. And with other cars (by the numbers) that costs 10's of thousands more. It's not blasphemy to admire it, even in the company of the almighty M3.

It does compete, and it does not. In raw numbers; sure. But in another sense, not at all. And that is my point. What some find to be the positive attributes, I find not to be. Bu that is fine. I have no problem with there being Mustangs... I love diversity.

Your argument could easily be turned around, as some here, obviously, does not understand the M3, wanting to give it diesel character and a big fat engine...

 

[hbs1906]

There are two sides to powertrain refinement; one is vibration the second is sound. As for vibration many American V8 are smooth as silk. The sound portion is differences in sound tuning. Many American V8s sound is mostly exhaust while European engine sound is mostly induction. From discussions with a friend who does powertrain NVH and acoustics it appears the US manufacturers have the knowledge to tune more induction sound but the customer base prefers the current throaty rumbling exhaust sound.

I am pretty sure Ford must be having the same discussion we are having about driving and powertrain character if they plan to make the vehicle available world wide. I don't know if Europe will accept the vehicle as it is, but I am not sure if more "European" Mustang is the answer.

Hopefully the vehicle becomes available across the pound so you guys can experience and enjoy both the Mustang GT and M3 as I do. These are two outstanding vehicles that get the job done in totally opposite ways.

 

[Mr Robert]

Thanks, great post. I agree with it, apart from the fact that refinement and vibrations are not what I'm refering to when I'm talking about character - power delivery is much more important.

Making things "European" could be sensitive. Many Mustang buyers here are looking for something different from what is traditionally offered here.

 

[K-A]

As for vibration many American V8 are smooth as silk. The sound portion is differences in sound tuning. Many American V8s sound is mostly exhaust while European engine sound is mostly induction. From discussions with a friend who does powertrain NVH and acoustics it appears the US manufacturers have the knowledge to tune more induction sound but the customer base prefers the current throaty rumbling exhaust sound.

YES WE DO!!

NOTHING beats the sound of a good Mustang.

I too hope that Ford doesn't "Euro" the Mustang up too much, however, after reading that article, looks like that might be the case.

The car needs to be kept a Muscle-Car, and if Ford can sneak in Euro refinement, and driving dynamics (which they already are doing), then great, but keep the car what it is, please, the market and many people really need it.

 

[MikeJ]

I am pretty sure Ford must be having the same discussion we are having about driving and powertrain character if they plan to make the vehicle available world wide. I don't know if Europe will accept the vehicle as it is, but I am not sure if more "European" Mustang is the answer.

Hopefully the vehicle becomes available across the pound so you guys can experience and enjoy both the Mustang GT and M3 as I do. These are two outstanding vehicles that get the job done in totally opposite ways.

The Mustang doesn't really exist in the mind of the average European car buyer, and Ford is a manufacturer of (relatively good) four-cylinder family cars as fas as they are concerned. Assuming that the next Mustang retains at least some of the current car's features and characteristics, it will never become mainstream in Europe and will not be a direct rival to traditional European offerings as far as sales figures are concerned. If Ford will indeed bring it over, it's clear that its purpose will be to be a halo car for the brand and to offer something different for those who want it. I have no doubt that there would be some buyers given that the current car, which is only available through unofficial importers, is not that rare a sight, and I'd certainly be happy to see it here.

 

[Karabiner98k]

NOTHING beats the sound of a good Mustang.

I agree about the sound of the Mustang it is really cool!

 

[Karabiner98k]

I don't know how the M3 will "beat" a C63 in "build quality", in fact, I'd beg to differ. I'm more confident in the constructional quality in the C63, and if I had to put lots of miles on either, I'd probably feel more confident in the C63 as well.

It is not my subjective opinion. In every German car magazine M3 scored better for build quality like here in Autozeitung (M3 vs C63):

And here is another test in AMS:

M3 not only scored better in quality but also in comfort which is impressive.

M-B makes perhaps the best V8's around, no argument there. But I wouldn't say a good American V8 lacks the refinement necessarily.

I didn't say American V8s lack refinement, i just said that they are not as refined as a Mercedes V8. There is no denying that American V8s are one of the best V8s out there especially when it comes to noise and smoothness.

Even GM with their dinosaur OHV V8's are masterfully engineered, they're using an ancient approach, yet have motors that provide insane HP, insane MPG, insanely good reliability/longetivity/durability, and are smooth as silk.

Yes, OHV engines of GMC are the best but reliability/longetivity/durability is usually one of the obvious features of OHV engines because they have a much more simpler design than modern DOHC or SOHC engines.

Also, it seems a lot of people here aren't giving the Mustang credit where it's due.

I think i was the one who gave more credit to Mustang than anyone here in my earlier posts about it's engine and drivetrain.

 

[330CIZHP]

You know what? People never got out of the frame of mind that started 20 years ago. Live axle became like kryptonite in the performance circles. Time have moved on and this was the biggest proof of it.

However, people forget now thanks to chassis engineering for torsional rigidity has become so advanced, weight balance now much easier to achieve with lighter engines and suspension tuning, the difference between the live axle and independent suspension is negligible.

This Mustang GT vs M3 comparo is a classic testament of that. What Ford did was do what Porsche did with the 911. They took an inherently inferior design and perfected it so well that now it measures up with the best.

Surprisingly, I have read the Mustang GT's suspension is surprisingly forgiving on bumpy roads where independent suspension still was holding its ground. Seems like Ford even conquered that obstacle.

Funny, how Jeremy Clarkson kept bashing the entire episode the new Euro Civic Type R for having solid axle compared to the old EP3 Civic Type R. When The Stig actually ran lap in the new Civic Type R, it turned out to be 3 seconds faster than the old independently sprung EP3 Civic Type R despite being heavier and the same engine.

When Ford engineered the current generation of Mustangs, they thought they could save $100 per car if they used the live axle. It turned out to cost them more than that once NVH engineering was done (and I'm not convinced the handling engineering is completely done).
2010 Ford Mustang: Near Enough is Not Good Enough | Car News Blog at Motor Trend

Mustang is not the only current car without independent rear suspension. The Kia Forte, VW Polo, Audi A1, Toyota Yaris & Prius, and US-market Jettas have torsion beams. I reckon most people in segments are willing to put up with the shortcomings of a live axle, assuming they can even realize the difference. Many will think a bad ride over bumps is expected in a very affordable car.

 

[NarutoRamen]

I have defended the new Mustang many times, so I won't butt in this time. I'm just happy that many of you are finally giving this car credit.

 

[CarGuy]

There is no daught about it, the M3 is getting it's ass handed to it by a car that costs more than 25 thousand dollars less. Any hypocrite would choose the Mustang in this scenario, no buts and maybes.

 

[K-A]

I wonder how the 2011 GT500 would fair against the M3, since it's closer to its price range as well. I know in a straight line it'll wipe the floor, more or less, but all around balance/dynamics. The GT500's been known to be a pig with lousier numbers than it's HP figures would insinuate, but in 2010 they made refinements to help with that.... And for 2011, apparently they went even further with weight reduction (engine block if I remember correctly), and better F/R weight balance.

About the solid rear. One area where I can defend it, is in drag-racing, it has proven to do the Mustang well there, and people run MAJOR HP cars on stock rear ends. Some guys who got serious with the '03 Cobra even switched to a solid rear, to maximize straight line performance and durability.

Ford has done with the Solid Rear what GM has with the OHV, they perfected an "ancient" design, to where it can perform as well as, or better than, more advanced and modern designs. Still, I'd like to see Ford give the Mustang a good IRS, if for driving comfort more than anything.