My Thoughts on Mercedes Benz

[GTA45E]

Sure - but put simply, Mercedes has never done ultra-prestige as well as Rolls-Royce.

I certainly am not suggesting that the Maybach designers copied Rolls-Royce or anything like that, but since Rolls-Royce was the target, it makes sense to make a careful study of the best the competition has offered over the years.

Rolls-Royce's design cues have been synonymous with high-end luxury for decades - they are part of our collective consciousness and have become archetypes of a certain type of vehicle. The Maybach's designers did not stray too far from those archetypes with their creation - it is a relatively unsurprising and predictable design in many ways - they could have changed the whole ultra-luxury car milieu with the Maybach, but instead they decided to "play it safe" and offer something much more conventional ........dare I say mediocre.

I don`t quit get your logic here. To say " it makes since to make a careful study of the best of what the competition has to offer" while saying the Roll Royce design qualitys were not studied or copied by Maybach sounds like bad logic in the same paragraph.

Then you contradict yourself in the second paragraph with Rolls Royce design
cues suggesting that Mercedes studied them when designing the Maybach.
It`s very obvious that Rolls Royce plays a heavy hand in your logic.
When designers (no matter which one) designs an ultra-luxury vehicle certain
details come into play. These are the archetypes (so to speak) of ulta-luxury itself that would be designed and fitted into the vehicle. Rolls Royce has it`s own interpretation of archetyped luxury thats very British and old-world so to speak. Maybach has it`s own archetype thats very German, modern, hi-tech and trendy. These two vehicles compete with each other in the market but the designers clearly had a different approach in mind. One shouldn`t be call inferior just because it`s interpreted differently. Rolls Royce is not the surpreme archetype of luxury itself. It`s just the companys archetyped interpretation of ultra luxury.

 

[donau]

just wanted to quickly comment on this....If they were as radical as BMW then their head designer would be as well known as Chris Bangle, but not even I, an enthusiast, can tell you his name...

Isn't it still Peter Pfeiffer?

 

[ALI]

just wanted to quickly comment on this....If they were as radical as BMW then their head designer would be as well known as Chris Bangle, but not even I, an enthusiast, can tell you his name...

Do you even think Bangle has the complete controll over designing these cars ? If there was a decision for making the designs so radical , it's BMW not Bangle . And I thank god that Bangle is not in full command of BMW's designs because it would have been a disaster for more than it already is . He is famous for one reason and only one reason : The big change in BMW's new look , and he is the first designer to achieve it .

 

[Michael]

This has to be one of the most subjective threads on GermanCarForum.com right now.

Look I understand that all of you have your opinions but some of you are just saying non sense with no backing.

I suggest we go back to what we know and not have personal attacks, say things such as "thank god bangle is not in charge, and anything similiar to what I have already mentioned. We can discuss subjective opinions in a very nice and respectable way.

If you disagree with someone's opinion simply state "I disagree with what you said because of x,y, and z" That's it. No personaly insults.

If someone is disagreeing with you, like I mentioned above, don't get offended. Everything you say is up for interpretation and make sure you logically think through what that person is saying and what you are going to say before you say something.

Emotions just be the last resort a topic like this one.

If you guys continue down a bashing of any brand, any personal that works for the brand, members here, or anything that is not related to this topic then this thread will simply be closed.

I hope I have expressed myself very clearly and hopefully there will be smooth sailing on this thread from now on.

In addition to this the action taken by anyone that is considered a moderator is an action that was carfully thought out. If you, for some reason, disagree with that action PM that moderator and speak with them personally in a very respectable manner. There is no need to post any posts on a thread in reference to something that will prolong an unnecessary debate and will deviate the topic.

Thank you

 

[ALI]

Sorry to make my posts a little ruff , but sometimes I get carried away while trying to make a point , but I will revise from now on .

 

[Matt]

Isn't it still Peter Pfeiffer?

Don't ask me..BUt if it is then I learned something.

 

[SDNR]

I don`t quit get your logic here. To say " it makes since to make a careful study of the best of what the competition has to offer" while saying the Roll Royce design qualitys were not studied or copied by Maybach sounds like bad logic in the same paragraph.

- just allow me to repost precisely what I said..

Sure - but put simply, Mercedes has never done ultra-prestige as well as Rolls-Royce.

I certainly am not suggesting that the Maybach designers copied Rolls-Royce or anything like that, but since Rolls-Royce was the target, it makes sense to make a careful study of the best the competition has offered over the years.

Rolls-Royce's design cues have been synonymous with high-end luxury for decades - they are part of our collective consciousness and have become archetypes of a certain type of vehicle. The Maybach's designers did not stray too far from those archetypes with their creation - it is a relatively unsurprising and predictable design in many ways - they could have changed the whole ultra-luxury car milieu with the Maybach, but instead they decided to "play it safe" and offer something much more conventional ........dare I say mediocre.

Now please note, I said quite clearly that I am not suggesting Maybach copied Rolls-Royce. But that does not mean the Maybach's designers did not make a comprehensive study of their main rival - Rolls-Royce.....of course they did.

Rolls-Royce has been imitated by luxury car manufacturers for decades - whether you are prepared to admit it or not GTA7.5, Rolls-Royce was, and still is, the benchmark for limousines...it is the marque by which all other luxury car makers measure themselves against. It makes no difference whether you personally prefer the Maybach or not...the Rolls-Royce brand, image, and history are the absolute international standard for automotive luxury.

Then you contradict yourself in the second paragraph with Rolls Royce design
cues suggesting that Mercedes studied them when designing the Maybach.

Read that paragraph carefully GTA7.5, it is not contradictory at all - I think it is very clear actually - a careful study of the competition is not the same as immitating it - are you seriously suggesting to me that the Maybach's designers did not even consider Rolls-Royce when conceiving their design?

It`s very obvious that Rolls Royce plays a heavy hand in your logic.

Well of course it does - Rolls-Royce has absolutely dominated this market segment for decades........ it still does.

These two vehicles compete with each other in the market but the designers clearly had a different approach in mind. One shouldn`t be call inferior just because it`s interpreted differently. Rolls Royce is not the surpreme archetype of luxury itself. It`s just the companys archetyped interpretation of ultra luxury.

I never said one was inferior - I agree with you on this, at this level of the market what is determined as "the best" is more a matter of personal taste than anything else.

I never said Rolls-Royce is the supreme archetype of luxury itself - but because it has had this market segment pretty much to itself since the early 1980's, I think it is fair to say Rolls-Royce has become a relatively universal archetype for ultra-luxury cars.

As I said in my previous post, Maybach had the golden opportunity to totally reinterpret what an ultra-luxury limousine actually is - unfortunately they opted for banality and pastiche - Maybach could have - no, should have been, a revolution - a vehicle that made a mark on history, changed the world - a supremely original and magnificent car that expressed the greatness of Daimler-Benz's history and pointed to a vision of the future. But instead we have a rather forgettable vehicle that has a few gimmicks that excited the fanboys but left the target-audience cold. Somebody should tell the designers at Maybach that reclining chairs are not exactly haute monde - it is completely inconceivable that the Japanese Crown Prince Naruhito and Princess Misako, for example, would lounge around in the rear of a Maybach 62 with their feet up - but then again, the main markets for the Maybach are less sophisticated or formal than Royalty - mainly being self-made business people and celebrities.

 

[GTA45E]

Well Roberto, there are quit a number of thing I disagree with you on and believe me I would love to point them out!! however our dicussion must end here because it simply is not the related to the topic at hand.

BMWFREAK pointed that out already. So until we create another thread on this matter my case is closed for now.

 

[SDNR]

Well Roberto, there are quit a number of thing I disagree with you on and believe me I would love to point them out!! however our dicussion must end here because it simply is not the related to the topic at hand.

BMWFREAK pointed that out already. So until we create another thread on this matter my case is closed for now.

I think it all relates to the topic perfectly well. This thread is about our thoughts about Mercedes-Benz and it's products - the Maybach "issue" is perfectly valid in this context.
I would be very interested to know your argument GTA7.5

 

[GTA45E]

I would be very interested to know your argument GTA7.5

Well, my first point is I realy don`t care for either of these cars but if I had to choose one it would be the Maybach 57S. Not only do the wheels look nice
but the interior is very good imo. This is not a arguement it`s just a comment for now.

 

[SDNR]

Well, my first point is I realy don`t care for either of these cars but if I had to choose one it would be the Maybach 57S. Not only do the wheels look nice
but the interior is very good imo. This is not a arguement it`s just a comment for now.

Sure.....great, I will not argue with you about that. The MM57S is quite some car - I would still rather own a LWB Phantom myself, but I do think the MM57S is much more desirable than the standard MM57.

 

[donau]

Don't ask me..BUt if it is then I learned something.

I think it's still Peter Pfeiffer but I don't know for sure. I often miss news about changes at that level of the organization. He's been there a long time and I seem to remember became the chief designer, or whatever the title is, at the end of the 90's.

 

[donau]

Sure.....great, I will not argue with you about that. The MM57S is quite some car - I would still rather own a LWB Phantom myself, but I do think the MM57S is much more desirable than the standard MM57.

I think they are both great looking cars in their own ways. Obviously targeting somewhat different types of wealthy people. Rolls evokes images of blue bloods and "old money". Maybach evokes images of baby boomer generation success stories, be it celebrities or business people: I believe Mick Jagger has a Maybach 62 and I have noticed a local building contractor around here drives a Maybach 57 himself. In other words older "new money". Bentleys make me think of younger "new money".
I admit, this is a highly subjective comment.

 

[YoungWarrior]

I think the main downfall of mercedes was the cheapening off the brand by introducing so many small cars and the bad build quality. That combined with mercedes taking so long to replace againg outclassed models and those horrid autoboxes in the AMG's made car magazines allways say something bad about mercedes. And they cost more than their rivals ie audi bmw.

The biggest reason however for the now lacklusture mercedes reputation is because of the crappy c-class.

 

[cawimmer430]

Most of MB target customers want "slow gradual change", hence the "predictable styling". I however disagree with the "predictable styling" comment you made. The new S-Class, SLK, R-Class and CLS are all pretty RADICAL by MB standards.

 

[cawimmer430]

A-Class – Tries to be practical, but completely outclassed by much cheaper rivals in most other areas. It’s a blend of mediocre dynamics matched by mediocre performance. It doesn’t even offer superior comfort. The only thing separating it from the pack is the MB badge on the grill. Sorry, you're wrong here. The A-Class is a superior contender in this class offering more than enough appeal to most buyers. The emphasis in this class is not SPEED, but FUEL ECONOMY, so nobody cares if the cars here are "slow". Besides, the A200 and A200 Turbo and A200 CDI are more than fast enough, I've driven them. Sure, it's pricey but that's what you pay for when you get a Mercedes: image. I don't know where you got the idea that the A-Class has "horrible driving dynamics". Drive the car first, then comment or don't listen to what magazines say. I've driven many new A-Classes and they handle really good. Predictable and safe. I rank the A-Class as one of the "sportiest" Mercedes' out there, even though the car doesn't try to be sporty. If you're talking about the old A-Class, yes, that car sucked.

B- Class – What really was the point here? Could they not have built a proper 1 or A3 rival? The A-class already appeals to the practically minded buyers. The B is utterly pointless really and seems to have cannibalized the aging c-class’s market. Yes, C-Class sales have been cannibalized by the A and B-Classes, but the B-Class is a pretty appealing car in Europe. The driving dynamics don't match that of the A-Class, but it's appealing because of its size (important for Europe) and practicality. When I worked for an MB dealer last summer, there where many people trading in their Mazda 6's etc. for one. Personally, I like the styling but the drive is pretty wobbly and probably geared towards older buyers.

C-Class – The facelift did very little to improve the appeal of this vehicle. It clearly looks a generation behind the A4, 3 and IS. Wrong again, the C-Class has become very appealing after the facelift. The transformation of this car was phenomenal. The pre-facelift C-Class was a mediocre piece of machinery, not the facelifted one. The car feels noticebly more solid, handles nearly on par with the BMW 3-series in everyday driving and the new engines have made the C-Class very appealing. And I've driven a bunch of older and new C-Classes to really feel the difference. The C-Class now ranks as one of my favorite MB's. In Europe, the new C-Class has won several comparo's over the BMW 3-series because it's been improved that greatly. I can see why it's not appealing in America when you have all this competition over there.

E-Class – The one MB design that still captures some of the past’s MB’s elegance. Lackluster quality has damaged its reputation hugely however. Quality is fine, reliability is the issue here.

S-class – Perhaps still engineered like no other, but where has the beauty and splendor gone? Design is subjective. But you should know that MB addressed the engine issue and made the new V8 a smooth runner. C&D even said it was superior to the Lexus 4.3-l V8 in smoothness, perhaps even better. Having driven the new W221 S500, I have to agree. This engine is powerful and extremely refined. MB is making a comeback.

M-class – Not much to complain about really, but still lacking some key tech advances (Distronic, reversing cameras, lingatronic). Does it raise the bar high enough to remain competitive against the new X5? Unfortunately this doesn’t seem likely. The X5 is a SPORTS SUV, why is it all of a sudden the "benchmark in its class"? It's not: the Cayenne is when it comes to sports SUV's. The M-Class doesn't try to be a sports SUV. I've driven the new and old M-Classes and the new M-Class is pretty solid onroad. It's not on the same level as the X5 dynamically, but it's pretty solid and easy to drive for most people. Where the ML kills the X5 is offroad. The X5 is simply no match for the ML offroad because BMW emphasized the onroad-drive, not offroad.

R-Class – Looks very much like the ugly duckling of the MB range from the pictures (I am yet to see it in the metal). Is it really so different from other people movers though? Appealing and practical, but ugly, I agree.

 

[ALI]

cawimmer430: I totally agree and very well said , now that's a real MB fanatic with truth .

 

[donau]

I think the main downfall of mercedes was the cheapening off the brand by introducing so many small cars and the bad build quality. That combined with mercedes taking so long to replace againg outclassed models and those horrid autoboxes in the AMG's made car magazines allways say something bad about mercedes. And they cost more than their rivals ie audi bmw.

The biggest reason however for the now lacklusture mercedes reputation is because of the crappy c-class.

I have been lucky with both my 2001 E320 that I don't recall having any other problems except a punctured tire a couple of times, and my 2003 E320 that has had a few minor issues. One of my front light bulbs had to be replaced once. When I had voice activation installed, the handset had to be replaced once because it did not work, and the other one could have been an upsetting one if I had to pay for it was some cone-stuff that had crumbled in the catalytic convertes. And of course I've had a punctured tire on this one too, but the Mercedes road-side assistance got me fixed pretty quick. Anyway, the point is that my experience of the build quality has not been all that ghastly. In fact, starting in the early 70's when I think back to my Chevy Firenza, the Valiant, Ford Anglia, Alfa Romeo AlfaSud, the VW Golf, the two Buick Centuries, and the GMC vanDura2500 that I still have, the two Mercedes cars have been providing me with virtual driver's heaven, perfection by comparison to the other cars.
I agree about the proliferation of the new models. I don't think it's helpful either. Some correction in strategy is required. I also don't know why they insisted on having automatic AMGs for so long. My brothers C-class car has been pretty much the same as my E's, very satisfying. I know that the stats say these models have had a lot of problems but fortunately I have not seen them.

 

[warot]

C-Class – The facelift did very little to improve the appeal of this vehicle. It clearly looks a generation behind the A4, 3 and IS. Wrong again, the C-Class has become very appealing after the facelift. The transformation of this car was phenomenal. The pre-facelift C-Class was a mediocre piece of machinery, not the facelifted one. The car feels noticebly more solid, handles nearly on par with the BMW 3-series in everyday driving and the new engines have made the C-Class very appealing. And I've driven a bunch of older and new C-Classes to really feel the difference. The C-Class now ranks as one of my favorite MB's. In Europe, the new C-Class has won several comparo's over the BMW 3-series because it's been improved that greatly. I can see why it's not appealing in America when you have all this competition over there.

Yea, but the car looks like it's competing against the E46 and B5 A4... the car doesn't stand much chance of competing against BMW and Audi I think because the facelift just isn't enough.

As for the A class, although I've never driven it, I wouldn't classify it as sporty... the A is just too tall, too bubbly, FWD and expensive. That's just what I think.

 

[YoungWarrior]

I have been lucky with both my 2001 E320 that I don't recall having any other problems except a punctured tire a couple of times, and my 2003 E320 that has had a few minor issues. One of my front light bulbs had to be replaced once. When I had voice activation installed, the handset had to be replaced once because it did not work, and the other one could have been an upsetting one if I had to pay for it was some cone-stuff that had crumbled in the catalytic convertes. And of course I've had a punctured tire on this one too, but the Mercedes road-side assistance got me fixed pretty quick. Anyway, the point is that my experience of the build quality has not been all that ghastly. In fact, starting in the early 70's when I think back to my Chevy Firenza, the Valiant, Ford Anglia, Alfa Romeo AlfaSud, the VW Golf, the two Buick Centuries, and the GMC vanDura2500 that I still have, the two Mercedes cars have been providing me with virtual driver's heaven, perfection by comparison to the other cars.

Well compared to the other cars you have owned the mercedes is vastly superior but the problems you did have although minor is unnacceptable for the price you are paying. Mercedes rivals dont have any were near as many problems as mercedes were having with models below the S-class. I blame the joint venture ith chrysler personally.

Wrong again, the C-Class has become very appealing after the facelift. The transformation of this car was phenomenal. The pre-facelift C-Class was a mediocre piece of machinery, not the facelifted one. The car feels noticebly more solid, handles nearly on par with the BMW 3-series in everyday driving and the new engines have made the C-Class very appealing. And I've driven a bunch of older and new C-Classes to really feel the difference. The C-Class now ranks as one of my favorite MB's. In Europe, the new C-Class has won several comparo's over the BMW 3-series because it's been improved that greatly. I can see why it's not appealing in America when you have all this competition over there.

I disagree. The current C-class is terrible. The E46 and the B5 audi were both better than the updated C-class according to every major UK magazine and topgear and both BMW and Audi are now a generation ahead. As for it not appealing to america is because no one wants a small mercedes over there. They are seen as a luxury car maker and a c-class is not luxury. The audi A4 and 3 series sell well in teh states because the teens like them for their elegant looks and sportyness.