My Thoughts on Mercedes Benz

[Mr. Mercedes]

Hey guys.

I’ve noticed in recent times more and more once staunch MB fans, much like myself, drifting away from the brand. At first I myself was annoyed by this and begun to think the rampant MB bashing was somewhat of a hobby on this board. But now I’ve come full circle and can see why this has been the case. I’m sad to say I am no longer that enamored by the 3 pointed star. The marqué really has lost its once glorious luster. I am aware that the company has had a recent troubled past, and will improve from here onwards (hopefully!!) but right now BMW and Audi both seem to be running rings around MB and are infinitely more appealing in my eyes.

1. MB’s styling: The current range is all over the place. Sure for the most part you can still recognize the vehicles as MB’s, but the new models have lost the magic of the MB’s of old. Benz’s style ‘direction’ (or lack thereof) has become boring and predictable. Whereas Audi and BMW in particular continue to push the boundaries, MB’s design team seems to be satisfied with mediocrity. There are very few cars in the current lineup that I would consider beautiful vehicles (SL, CLS and to some extent the E). The M-class is also very nice looking SUV. But the rest of range falls completely flat in my eyes. Audi has MB whipped for understated elegance and BMW creams it for avant-garde design, sophistication and design flair. In all honesty, at the moment I’m completely smitten by BMW’s design, and the future of Audi design is looking extremely promising.

And that’s just the exterior design considered. MB’s interior design is even more disparate across the range. Sure the S-class and CLS are supremely built, but where is the coherent design DNA? Apart from the sharing of electronic components across the range, there really is no design consistency. When you sit in a BMW you know 100% you are in a BMW, and the same can be said for an Audi. This stretches from the entry level 1 and A3 all the way to the 7 and A8 and makes the lesser models feel that much more special. From one MB to another, you could be sitting in a car from a completely different brand.

2. Reliability/Quality: Ok so this is clearly an area where MB will no doubt improve, but right now I’m sick of all the quality niggles and reliability problems. In the past 6 years our family has had 3 MB’s and every single one has had issues (W220, W211 and W209). Sure there hasn’t been any major mechanical failings, but the constant run around chasing small interior trim rattles, vibrating steering wheels, smelling climate control systems, vibrating speakers etc. has become extremely annoying. It makes the ownership experience very very tiresome, as the cars always seem to have one problem or another. Until there is bulletproof, quantitative evidence suggesting that things are on the mend, I would think twice about my family buying another MB.

3. Technology: The company remains at the safety forefront, but seems to be falling behind in several key areas. Why is the command system still so bloody inferior to Lexus’s navigation? I have no experience with the navigation systems in BMW and Audi, so I can’t really comment on them.

Why can MB still not integrate Bluetooth technology into their cars? Other companies have been doing it for years!

Why has MB let themselves fall behind in terms of engine technology? For a company that prides itself at being at the forefront of automotive engineering, surely engine design would receive more attention than it does. The 4 cylinder range is mediocre at best and the CVT transmission completely useless (it does its utmost best at dulling the performance of the engines). The AMG V8 truly is a spectacular engine, but several press releases have stated, AMG developed the engine INDEPENDENTLY. What does that say about MB’s engine engineering? Too much money and effort going to conquering the diesel market?

4. Marketing: MB insists on being all things to all people and has lost its engineering driven focus completely. It is now foremost a market share driven company, and ironically this has actually seen its position in the market being eroded away. When you buy a BMW you buy it for ‘sheer driving pleasure.’ When you buy an Audi you buy it for bullet proof build quality and more recently technology and driving dynamics. When you buy a Benz you’re buying it for what exactly?

A-Class – Tries to be practical, but completely outclassed by much cheaper rivals in most other areas. It’s a blend of mediocre dynamics matched by mediocre performance. It doesn’t even offer superior comfort. The only thing separating it from the pack is the MB badge on the grill.

B- Class – What really was the point here? Could they not have built a proper 1 or A3 rival? The A-class already appeals to the practically minded buyers. The B is utterly pointless really and seems to have cannibalized the aging c-class’s market.

C-Class – The facelift did very little to improve the appeal of this vehicle. It clearly looks a generation behind the A4, 3 and IS.

E-Class – The one MB design that still captures some of the past’s MB’s elegance. Lackluster quality has damaged its reputation hugely however.

S-class – Perhaps still engineered like no other, but where has the beauty and splendor gone?

M-class – Not much to complain about really, but still lacking some key tech advances (Distronic, reversing cameras, lingatronic). Does it raise the bar high enough to remain competitive against the new X5? Unfortunately this doesn’t seem likely.

R-Class – Looks very much like the ugly duckling of the MB range from the pictures (I am yet to see it in the metal). Is it really so different from other people movers though?

CLS – Supremely sexy, but inherits the flaws of its E-class underpinnings.

SLK – I’m over the looks already (snooze). At least it’s a competitive package overall.

CL – One can only hope the next one is bloody brilliant.

SL – Still magnificent. A true MB!

Well anyway, those are a few of my current thoughts about Mercedes Benz. Just thought I’d share them with you guys and hope to hear your take on things. Points you agree or disagree with, where you see the company heading.

Now really is a sad era for MB.

 

[warot]

Although I have a lot of problems agreeing with the idea of a car for everybody and everyone, I think that Benz is going in a better direction than they did in the past few years. The CLS is a great hit and the S class seems to have good quality.
My main problem is cars like the B and R class, that try to bridge the lineup. I like how the German companies are expanding and offering things like SUVs and such, but there needs to be more gap.

 

[SDNR]

....I feel a bit awkward even commenting on this Mr. Mercedes, of course you know I agree with your comments completely....and couldn't have said it better - it was an excellent post.

I realize that I have been consistently annoying to several Mercedes-Benz fans over the past couple of years - people have questioned whether I really even was a Mercedes fan at all. Let me just say, I am still a huge Mercedes-Benz fan - older models like the W100, W198, W126 and R129 (and several others) are still among my favourite cars - I'm also quite enthusiastic about the current SL.

You are correct Mr. Mercedes, when you said that the current range is all over the place - I'm still hoping they will sort things out very soon. The problems with reliability have been very discouraging.

Even the SLR fell short of expectations - it should have been the finest car ever IMO - Maybach has been disastrous and the R and B classes are just ghastly - my opinions of course, but I live in hope that at least the new CL will be something worth celebrating.

 

[Merc1]

Well I'm not sure where to start here.

I think MB's interior design is all over the place right now because the S-Class is the first of a new generation of MB's so just like when BMW changed directions with their 7 in 2002, the S will stick out for a while until the other cars are re-designed to adopt its interior/exterior design motif. The rest of the lineup pretty much has the same interior design except for the CLS and SLK, one being different on purpose and the other a sports/roadster so I wouldn't expect it to have the same interior design as a sedan.

The quality issue is the biggest problem with Mercedes. Despite all the bad press their name is still so highly thought of its almost unbelievable when I hear people talking so highly about Mercedes-Benz. If this was fixed most people wouldn't even question the asthetics of a Mercedes, no matter what they looked like IMO.

My current favorites of the range are the CLS, CL, SL, S, and E-Class.

Roberto I knew a post like this was coming from you for a while now. I watched you defect for months now...lol!

We've all talked on and on about Maybach, that will remain a failure until the whole business and marketing case is totally re-examined. Either design something unique from a Mercedes or fold it back into Mercedes-Benz as a one-off customer model. I prefer the former solution, but the funds aren't there right now.

I'm likely the only person in the world that likes the R-Class. This vehicle suffers from a price/value equation that is out of whack (in the U.S. at least) and an interior that doesn't really live up to the price tag. Remember a time when a Mercedes had little tires and looked just fine? Ditto for BMW. Nowadays any Bangle BMW and newer model Mercedes (M,R,S) needs larger wheels to look "right". With the tiny wheels the R-Class puts off a lot of buyers in the U.S. by being just plain ackward to ugly looking. I could fix the R-Class in the US just like that.

I agree, either the A or B needs to be nixed. Totally redundant models. Mercedes would have better off spending the money on the development of the B-Class on better engine technology and better quality control.

The most crippling thing with Mercedes is that they've had to slow down their tradition of stunning technical innovations to keep quality up. This is like a ship with a huge hole in its hull. Bluetooth is a obvious oversight, but my question is why hasn't MB implemented direct-injection on their gasoline engines yet? (Same for BMW, minus their V12 too).

Ah the SLR. I still think this is the ultimate GT that is capable of at least keeping up with the "supercars" in most cases. They'll fix this one in due time. I suspect a facelift and more power along with a sportier track-biased model are due. They have sold enough of them (1000 at 450K a pop) to take some of that money and re-invest in this (IMO) awesome machine.

This E-Class facelift is very important. This car is part of the bread and butter lineup and it has but a few more years before a total redesign to get its reputation cleaned up. Otherwise it could wind up like the M-Class, redesigned and better than the previous generation, but people are wary of buying one based on past dealings/reputation.

There are some bright spots...........

Roberto, having AMG do their own engine is the best thing they could have ever done. That does wonders for AMG's prestige. Knowing that you're getting a custom engine from the same guys who build (with HWA) the AMG racing cars/engines. This engine has won praise from everyone and sounds like a demon in the vids I've seen. It is just as much of a racing engine for the street as the V10 from BMW. Now you're getting a custom engine, not a souped up version of a "regular" Mercedes engine. I think thats great, AMG can't help but be better off because of this. Have you seen the Autoweek article about Mercedes doing some special models called "Track Series"? Sounds just like what the image doctor ordered to me. The only fly in the buttermilk at AMG is that they may be spreading the name around too much with a AMG version of the R and upcoming GL. I would personally only offer a AMG verison of the ML, the ML63 and concentrate on making the R/GL better in terms of quality than trying to make them intro racing trucks.

It seems as though Mercedes has learned their lesson about cheap interiors. Every since the SLK every new Mercedes (again except the US built models) have the proper interior quality, CLS,SLK,S and no doubt the new CL.

It seems as though the S-Class is major hit so far. They seem to be flying off the lots here in the U.S. I'm looking for big numbers to be posted for Feb. I agree that the E-Class kinda does hark back to the older days of Mercedes' conservative, but good looking, clean design, but the E is getting called old looking and what not from a lot of folks so I think Mercedes new looks (think CLS and S) is what they'll have to do stay current in the eyes of people who like things anew. If they go back to the super conservative without being the highest in quality they'll loose the fight for sure. If the quality is supect as in reliability they have to make the cars more alluring to win people over since the reliability and to a lesser degree the engineering aren't doing all the talking anymore. Wouldn't you agree? I think that once they get the quality back without question they could do a semi-retro design for one of their cars, like the next CLS since it is a one-off model intended just for flash.

I don't see how BMW's designs are any more appealing. Car for car I think Mercedes' designs are far superior in most cases. Yes the C-Class does look like a senior citizen next to the A4 and 3-Series no doubt, but the E and S hold their own IMO. The 7-Series especially is nothing pretty, bold yes, but pretty no way. It was actually very ugly until the FL. The 5-Series has to have the biggest wheels and tires and the right color to look "right" the E-Class doesn't. Now Audi I can say does have a stellar lineup of designs. No argument there. The A8 is just the best Audi to have ever been built so far. I sat in one a few days ago at the Chicago autoshow and man this car is just the greatest thing on wheels. It feels custom made just for me. The S-Class may be superior on the road and in the techincal details, but the interior design/build award still goes to Audi. Exterior I'd say it is a toss up since I've seen the S enough now to have become a fan of it, especially in AMG form.

I think people buy a Mercedes (not the A and Bs though) for build quality, safety, comfort, engineering/technology in most cases though some models in their ir lineup don't display these qualities as vividly as others, which is why cars like the A/B should have never been built. You can't build SL/S or even E-Class qualities into such a car for such a price and if you do people want something sportier in those classes.

This on/off partnership with Mclaren could produce some stunning cars if Mercedes would let MC do their part (chassis/gearbox) while letting AMG supply the engines and MB doing the styling/interior. Forget the stupid rule about every MB having to have an automatic and loosen up some and give some of the "control" to the real chassis guys. Hell even AMG when turned loose knows how to do a real performance car, witness the CLK-DTM AMG. Likely the best Mercedes ever built for the road in modern times. A sports car designed by MC/MB in the manner above to compete with the F430/Gallardo with one of AMG's killer engines would be brilliant.

The new AMG boss talks a good game so far and now with real managment at the helm of DCX/Mercedes I think things are going to get much better, but it might take another 2-3 years before it really starts showing up in every faucet of the company.

M

 

[Tumbo]

Moderator, please move to the MB-forum.

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

Thanks for the positive comments Roberto.

“Even the SLR fell short of expectations - it should have been the finest car ever IMO - Maybach has been disastrous and the R and B classes are just ghastly - my opinions of course, but I live in hope that at least the new CL will be something worth celebrating.”

Precisely. The SLR had a chance at being one of the finest cars ever built, but it seems clashes between MB and Mclaren produced a mixed outcome. Also even the blind could tell, for the most part, the Maybach can’t hold a candle to the design of the RR. It was designed as a Mercedes in Tokyo for goodness sake!

Now to respond to Merc1.

The M-class, G-Class and R-class are all completely fresh, launched within months of the S. Surely they could have been more coherent in their design and execution. For them to fall into line with the trend set by the S is going to take another whole generation. In fact, I actually think the design of the S interior will have very little to do with what we see in other upcoming MB interiors bar the CL. The C will adopt the new command system, but most everything else will once again be completely different. Also, that none of the new cars implement the S-class’s I-drive like system just proves MB, as a range of vehicles, is a generation behind when it comes to the driver/car interface. Also, if BMW can manage a coherent interior theme throughout the range, from roadsters to coupes to full blown luxury sports sedans, why cant MB. There’s no excuse for this apart from the MB design team being seriously confused and directionless.

MB are likely to let Maybach soldier on for at least 5 more years. What they chose to do with the brand next…who knows. I’d actually like it to be called Mercedes Maybach (MB needs as much brand prestige as it can get these days) and represent the absolute epitome of what the company is capable of beyond even the S.

In terms of technology, your ship anology is very accurate. Watch the Japanese, Lexus in particular, pounce at this opportunity and roll out some real gee wiz technology. The signs are already there. They are not far behind is many respects (i.e. active cruise control and presafe systems) and ahead in others. The new LS460 parks itself and actually monitors the eye activity of the driver to determine there state of alertness. Their new power plants are true powerhouses (although I suspect their real world performance may be slightly exaggerated) and we have only seen a small glimpse of the high performance hybrid onslaught that entails.

AMG seems to be suffering the same over proliferation that the MB brand has. BMW insists that all M vehicles are true to their core values, whereas MB seems happy for AMG to stuff as much power into anything and everything just because people will buy them at inflated prices.

To my eyes, the BMW range (with a few notable exceptions) are on average stunning designs. MB’s have become staid and boring.

As for the A and B, if the cars can’t engender the brands core values at that price point, why build them in the first place. BMW would never build a car that didn’t offer extreme driving pleasure, so why should MB sacrifice build quality, luxury and comfort. Even BMW’s upcoming answer to the R-class promises to be a true drivers machine.

Sure the management at DCX may appear to be a competent bunch now, but it will take at least 5-6 years for a full turnaround in all aspects from design to marketing, engineering, technology etc. Also that talk about sharing more components with Chrysler has started up once again is making me very uneasy. BMW manages to be extremely profitable (second highest profit per vehicle after Porsche if I’m not mistaken) without any mass market component sharing with another brand that has different fundamental core values.

It’s a LOOOONG road ahead for MB.

 

[LaArtist]

for you all so called MB fans i say this..
I hope mb makes cars that you cant resist..and when you go to buy them..they should bitchslapp your ass and send you home..hahaha...

 

[Centurion]

I feel your thought Mr.Mercedes. Although there is still some MB love in my blod, my affection for BMW and Audi has grew strong the latest months. So now I'm hanging in the middle with my head leaning towards either of the three giants.

 

[NevadaJack]

Hey guys.

I’ve noticed in recent times more and more once staunch MB fans, much like myself, drifting away from the brand. At first I myself was annoyed by this and begun to think the rampant MB bashing was somewhat of a hobby on this board. But now I’ve come full circle and can see why this has been the case. I’m sad to say I am no longer that enamored by the 3 pointed star. The marqué really has lost its once glorious luster. I am aware that the company has had a recent troubled past, and will improve from here onwards (hopefully!!) but right now BMW and Audi both seem to be running rings around MB and are infinitely more appealing in my eyes.

1. MB’s styling: The current range is all over the place. Sure for the most part you can still recognize the vehicles as MB’s, but the new models have lost the magic of the MB’s of old. Benz’s style ‘direction’ (or lack thereof) has become boring and predictable. Whereas Audi and BMW in particular continue to push the boundaries, MB’s design team seems to be satisfied with mediocrity. There are very few cars in the current lineup that I would consider beautiful vehicles (SL, CLS and to some extent the E). The M-class is also very nice looking SUV. But the rest of range falls completely flat in my eyes. Audi has MB whipped for understated elegance and BMW creams it for avant-garde design, sophistication and design flair. In all honesty, at the moment I’m completely smitten by BMW’s design, and the future of Audi design is looking extremely promising.

And that’s just the exterior design considered. MB’s interior design is even more disparate across the range. Sure the S-class and CLS are supremely built, but where is the coherent design DNA? Apart from the sharing of electronic components across the range, there really is no design consistency. When you sit in a BMW you know 100% you are in a BMW, and the same can be said for an Audi. This stretches from the entry level 1 and A3 all the way to the 7 and A8 and makes the lesser models feel that much more special. From one MB to another, you could be sitting in a car from a completely different brand.

2. Reliability/Quality: Ok so this is clearly an area where MB will no doubt improve, but right now I’m sick of all the quality niggles and reliability problems. In the past 6 years our family has had 3 MB’s and every single one has had issues (W220, W211 and W209). Sure there hasn’t been any major mechanical failings, but the constant run around chasing small interior trim rattles, vibrating steering wheels, smelling climate control systems, vibrating speakers etc. has become extremely annoying. It makes the ownership experience very very tiresome, as the cars always seem to have one problem or another. Until there is bulletproof, quantitative evidence suggesting that things are on the mend, I would think twice about my family buying another MB.

3. Technology: The company remains at the safety forefront, but seems to be falling behind in several key areas. Why is the command system still so bloody inferior to Lexus’s navigation? I have no experience with the navigation systems in BMW and Audi, so I can’t really comment on them.

Why can MB still not integrate Bluetooth technology into their cars? Other companies have been doing it for years!

Why has MB let themselves fall behind in terms of engine technology? For a company that prides itself at being at the forefront of automotive engineering, surely engine design would receive more attention than it does. The 4 cylinder range is mediocre at best and the CVT transmission completely useless (it does its utmost best at dulling the performance of the engines). The AMG V8 truly is a spectacular engine, but several press releases have stated, AMG developed the engine INDEPENDENTLY. What does that say about MB’s engine engineering? Too much money and effort going to conquering the diesel market?

4. Marketing: MB insists on being all things to all people and has lost its engineering driven focus completely. It is now foremost a market share driven company, and ironically this has actually seen its position in the market being eroded away. When you buy a BMW you buy it for ‘sheer driving pleasure.’ When you buy an Audi you buy it for bullet proof build quality and more recently technology and driving dynamics. When you buy a Benz you’re buying it for what exactly?

A-Class – Tries to be practical, but completely outclassed by much cheaper rivals in most other areas. It’s a blend of mediocre dynamics matched by mediocre performance. It doesn’t even offer superior comfort. The only thing separating it from the pack is the MB badge on the grill.

B- Class – What really was the point here? Could they not have built a proper 1 or A3 rival? The A-class already appeals to the practically minded buyers. The B is utterly pointless really and seems to have cannibalized the aging c-class’s market.

C-Class – The facelift did very little to improve the appeal of this vehicle. It clearly looks a generation behind the A4, 3 and IS.

E-Class – The one MB design that still captures some of the past’s MB’s elegance. Lackluster quality has damaged its reputation hugely however.

S-class – Perhaps still engineered like no other, but where has the beauty and splendor gone?

M-class – Not much to complain about really, but still lacking some key tech advances (Distronic, reversing cameras, lingatronic). Does it raise the bar high enough to remain competitive against the new X5? Unfortunately this doesn’t seem likely.

R-Class – Looks very much like the ugly duckling of the MB range from the pictures (I am yet to see it in the metal). Is it really so different from other people movers though?

CLS – Supremely sexy, but inherits the flaws of its E-class underpinnings.

SLK – I’m over the looks already (snooze). At least it’s a competitive package overall.

CL – One can only hope the next one is bloody brilliant.

SL – Still magnificent. A true MB!

Well anyway, those are a few of my current thoughts about Mercedes Benz. Just thought I’d share them with you guys and hope to hear your take on things. Points you agree or disagree with, where you see the company heading.

Now really is a sad era for MB.

Nice post. Disagree with a lot of it but your thoughts are well stated.

I have looked and driven other makers cars but keep returning to MB. Call it Brand Loyalty or just can't get enough of a good thing. I cannot explain what I find about the MB to be so exclusive that I keep driving them. It is a hidden feature not talked about in the many articles now available to so many. It has a feel and purpose that just kind of blends with my body and mind when I drive it. Sound like love doesn't it... Well that is why I don't worry about all these technical and styling changes...I just keep up my love affair year after year.

As much as I loved my first S (the White S430) I am about a week or two away from ordering a new S550. Why you say? Just because I am in love again and have to enjoy the relationship with the new face and soul of this vehicle. So don't cut all your ties from MB and find nothing but negative aspects in their products. Time will tell if your assumptions are right...in the meantime keep a neutral position and enjoy all the varieties these German carmakers offer us.

 

[donau]

Interesting discussion and great comments from both for and against. Or rather against and some for. Before reading this, just talked about the same topic with my old father on the phone, who some time back bought his (probably) last car, a BMW X3. So he got his desire of some of the latter years of owning a BMW fulfilled too.
One important thing about cars is that one is not only buying a car but also an image. The (since the 60s) slow trend of BMWs becoming great cars with beautiful designs took it's toll on my dad as well and he just had to have one too. And he has been very happy with it, so no disappointments there. It is amazing how persistent the brand image is. It is not easy or quick to build one up and it is not all that easy to destroy the image either. It took BMW 40 years to do to get where they are today: at the top.
The BMWs of the 50s were all but desirable. As a small boy of about 4 or 5, my own relationship with BMW suffered a serious knock when I witnessed an attempt in the middle of the Finnish winter to get one started, by cranking it by hand. It was one of those 2-stroke machines that made a noise so loud that I was embarrassed to be seen in the vicinity. So, to me, the image of BMW is somewhat tainted. And you may think that's dumb because those cars have nothing whatsoever to do with todays brilliant machines. Same with Audi. My fathers first car, the "Donau", an Auto Union 1000S that was the successor to the DKW and one of the predecessors to Audi (it already had the 4 rings instead of the DKW badge), was also a 2-stroke machine and therefore a few rungs down on the image ladder. My grandfathers MB 170Va had no such problems. It was Mercedes and thus one of the best cars in the world. The image of Mercedes has always been at the top. And we all know it has been there for the last 120 years, and will always be there, thus always having the upper hand in the image persistence game.
Regarding styling, the previous generation of BMWs were probably the most stylish cars around. The latest generation, while I like them, did not make the best even better as far as styling goes. The Audis though seem to be on a strong ascending curve in the design games and the list at the end of Mr. Mercedes' 2nd post probably described the current situation accurately with MB a distant 3rd in the minds of the majority of the fans at this time. But honestly, I don't think the differences are all that great. And as time goes on, I predict BMW and Audi will face similar feelings as people have looked at them long enough.

Which approach will prove the best on the long term, emphasising the driver and driving pleasure, or comfort. Who knows. I believe the stats show that by 2030 about one third of the population of earth will be 60 or over. And while no one wants to be thought of as driving an old man's car, the old should not reject the cars either for any reason.
I like all three brands. They all look great to me. But for that hard to explain something,
Mercedes will always be the number one in that crowd. I myself don't think there's much wrong with the designs. They just don't excite me all that much right now but that may have more to do with having seen so many of them rather than them being ugly or anything. In other words familiarity breeds complacency and indifference. The grass is always greener on the other side.
Another big problem is this business need to sell the most cars and appear to be the most popular. Mass marketing. Mercedes seems to have gotten close to the edge and that's biting them now. But I would not be surprised if in time to come BMW and Audi will experience something similar in time to come since they all are on the quest to becoming, or staying at the top of the market share game. I agree with the other writers in this thread about DCX needing to reduce the number of MB models. They could cut the A, B, R, and G easily without me even noticing that anything is gone.
Also, I wish they made AMG a bit more exclusive and not have an AMG verson of everything they make.
One of the reasons I am drawn to Porsche nowadays is that it is more exclusive. And I hope Porsche will always keep most of their models exclusive, and not go the mass market way. In fact, while I will probably not find anyone else who'd symphatise with this thought, I like to think Porsche as the prodigal son of Daimler or Mercedes who made it big in the world, on it's own. Ferdinand Porsche was part of the Daimler family (as was Maybach), and he left because of conflicts with the mass marketing oriented business folks at the company who did not want to build a smaller, lighter, fast little car. Much the same as Wilhelm Maybach for a bit different reasons. So, prodigal son or real son, makes no difference to me. Still part of the same family. Therefore I think that if I change my current car to a Carrera 4S or a Cayman S, I'm not really being unfaithful to the family of my allegiance. And I will certainly be getting something that is not seen quite as much on the roads as the Mercedes, BMW or Audi. Not to mention that there's not all that much to complain about the Porsche engineering either.

But the bottom line about Mercedes having become boring, no, not really. Not in my book. Mercedes will always be the car we compare other cars against. Whether it be to point out how much better the other cars are, or vica versa.
There's just too many of them right now. And yes, they do need to take care of a few little problems. I have no doubt they will accomplish this in a time that is relatively short in the context of their 120 year history.

 

[Matt]

Let me start off by saying that in general I like Mercedes but, I think Mr. Mercedes hit the nail on the head. What does that brand name mean anymore? It has lost its value and I'm sad to say that most of the loyal Benz customers may find themselves at the Lexus dealer picking up an LS.

Instead of making consistently good cars as BMW and Audi have done, Mercedes seems to spread their engineering costs all over the board by introducing cars and segments without a demand for that segment (B,R,CLS). Some may say that the large selection is great but Mercedes needs to spend more money on their CORE CARS and not on B's and R's.

They also seem to be destroying the value of the AMG cars as well by prostituting the badge to everything they make on four wheels. At some point it gets rediculous and silly. There is absolutley no demand for a AMG minivan! So, why spend engineering cost to make one??

Even before the B, R, and CLS, the nomenclature has always been seemingly random. You would expect the CLK to be based off the C class and the SLK to be based off the S class but youd be wrong. Youd also expect the SL and the SLK to be related but you would also be wrong. I am obsest with German cars and I still cant follow the brand! How is the average customer supposed to be able to keep up with the abitrary naming of cars they make.

But the real problem has already been outlined by Mr. Mercedes. The cars aren't consistent with each other and there are too many cross-over retard vehicles. Unfortuantely the Mercedes design (both exterior and interior) doesnt define the mercedes brand as BMW's and Audi's design distinguishes them from every other Auto-maker.

 

[Merc1]

Thanks for the positive comments Roberto.

“Even the SLR fell short of expectations - it should have been the finest car ever IMO - Maybach has been disastrous and the R and B classes are just ghastly - my opinions of course, but I live in hope that at least the new CL will be something worth celebrating.”

Precisely. The SLR had a chance at being one of the finest cars ever built, but it seems clashes between MB and Mclaren produced a mixed outcome. Also even the blind could tell, for the most part, the Maybach can’t hold a candle to the design of the RR. It was designed as a Mercedes in Tokyo for goodness sake!

Now to respond to Merc1.

The M-class, G-Class and R-class are all completely fresh, launched within months of the S. Surely they could have been more coherent in their design and execution. For them to fall into line with the trend set by the S is going to take another whole generation. In fact, I actually think the design of the S interior will have very little to do with what we see in other upcoming MB interiors bar the CL. The C will adopt the new command system, but most everything else will once again be completely different. Also, that none of the new cars implement the S-class’s I-drive like system just proves MB, as a range of vehicles, is a generation behind when it comes to the driver/car interface. Also, if BMW can manage a coherent interior theme throughout the range, from roadsters to coupes to full blown luxury sports sedans, why cant MB. There’s no excuse for this apart from the MB design team being seriously confused and directionless.

MB are likely to let Maybach soldier on for at least 5 more years. What they chose to do with the brand next…who knows. I’d actually like it to be called Mercedes Maybach (MB needs as much brand prestige as it can get these days) and represent the absolute epitome of what the company is capable of beyond even the S.

In terms of technology, your ship anology is very accurate. Watch the Japanese, Lexus in particular, pounce at this opportunity and roll out some real gee wiz technology. The signs are already there. They are not far behind is many respects (i.e. active cruise control and presafe systems) and ahead in others. The new LS460 parks itself and actually monitors the eye activity of the driver to determine there state of alertness. Their new power plants are true powerhouses (although I suspect their real world performance may be slightly exaggerated) and we have only seen a small glimpse of the high performance hybrid onslaught that entails.

AMG seems to be suffering the same over proliferation that the MB brand has. BMW insists that all M vehicles are true to their core values, whereas MB seems happy for AMG to stuff as much power into anything and everything just because people will buy them at inflated prices.

To my eyes, the BMW range (with a few notable exceptions) are on average stunning designs. MB’s have become staid and boring.

As for the A and B, if the cars can’t engender the brands core values at that price point, why build them in the first place. BMW would never build a car that didn’t offer extreme driving pleasure, so why should MB sacrifice build quality, luxury and comfort. Even BMW’s upcoming answer to the R-class promises to be a true drivers machine.

Sure the management at DCX may appear to be a competent bunch now, but it will take at least 5-6 years for a full turnaround in all aspects from design to marketing, engineering, technology etc. Also that talk about sharing more components with Chrysler has started up once again is making me very uneasy. BMW manages to be extremely profitable (second highest profit per vehicle after Porsche if I’m not mistaken) without any mass market component sharing with another brand that has different fundamental core values.

It’s a LOOOONG road ahead for MB.

I agree with most of this, but BMW's designs are stunning? I totally disagree with that. I think bold would be the right word, because when I think of something being "stunning" I think of it being beautiful, which BMW designs are not.

I'm not sure about the interiors needing to look the same over the entire range. I'm sure it could be done, they've done it before, but I think I'd rather see the same basics taken to different levels throughout the range. A car like the SLK doesn't need the same design as the S-Class IMO, just a little of the same theme would do there.

I agree about AMG. They need to drop the super trucks, well except for the ML and the original G-Class, no R/GL AMGs.

As far as hybrids are concerned, well Mercedes and entire German car industry missed and got left by that boat. Mercedes will likely be the first of the Germans to market a hybrid sedan, but we'll see. Even then it won't be a performance model like Lexus is planning.

M

 

[Merc1]

Let me start off by saying that in general I like Mercedes but, I think Mr. Mercedes hit the nail on the head. What does that brand name mean anymore? It has lost its value and I'm sad to say that most of the loyal Benz customers may find themselves at the Lexus dealer picking up an LS.

Instead of making consistently good cars as BMW and Audi have done, Mercedes seems to spread their engineering costs all over the board by introducing cars and segments without a demand for that segment (B,R,CLS). Some may say that the large selection is great but Mercedes needs to spend more money on their CORE CARS and not on B's and R's.

They also seem to be destroying the value of the AMG cars as well by prostituting the badge to everything they make on four wheels. At some point it gets rediculous and silly. There is absolutley no demand for a AMG minivan! So, why spend engineering cost to make one??

Even before the B, R, and CLS, the nomenclature has always been seemingly random. You would expect the CLK to be based off the C class and the SLK to be based off the S class but youd be wrong. Youd also expect the SL and the SLK to be related but you would also be wrong. I am obsest with German cars and I still cant follow the brand! How is the average customer supposed to be able to keep up with the abitrary naming of cars they make.

But the real problem has already been outlined by Mr. Mercedes. The cars aren't consistent with each other and there are too many cross-over retard vehicles. Unfortuantely the Mercedes design (both exterior and interior) doesnt define the mercedes brand as BMW's and Audi's design distinguishes them from every other Auto-maker.

A little bit overboard here, if most Benz customers were buying the LS the new S-Class wouldn't be doing so well. Just like I have to tell the folks on Edmunds, the Lexus LS is but one car and Mercedes isn't just made on S-Class. Lexus hasn't the range or choices to even come close to taking all of Mercedes' customers.

Mercedes has never wavered on safety, not even a little bit. That is one reason why people still buy them. Comfort is another. An Audi or BMW still don't have the ride of a Mercedes, especially when it comes to the cars we get here in the U.S. Mercedes has plenty of draw left.

Mercedes' design not being as defining as Audis or BMWs is a byproduct of so many companies from Japan and especially Korea copying everything they do. I'll give you that Audi has come full circle and the brand identity is strong as can be with that grille, but it hasn't been liked by everyone and BMW's new design theme certainly hasn't, but in BMW's case their unwavering devotion to driving pleasure has allowed them to become even more popular design the less then beautiful design.

I guess I don't see a problem with Mercedes' design because it was always conservatively good looking, but with the new appearing to be a hit I guess Mercedes will now shift in design like BMW did with the 2002 7-Series. We'll see.

M

 

[Matt]

^yea I suppose we will. But even if Mercedes does follow the S/CLS styling I dont think their image will improve. The S class is a good looking vehicle, but I dont look at that car and say "that truly is a Mercedes Benz". Mercedes doesnt have any design features that you can relate to its history as BMW and Audi do. BMW has its kidney grills and C piller window line that is traditional BMW styling. With the new Bangle designs you can take in the changes but also reflect on the past because some design principles never change. Mercedes doesnt have that. They dont have design features where a person can look at it and feel there looking at Mercedes' finest along with 130 years of history.

 

[Deutsch]

I've read and skim'd through several posts in here, mainly Mr. Merc's intial post. For whatever reason I don't have the paitence to skim through each and every post and disect words being said.

Yes to be selfish, here is my take.

There was once a time where I use to look at MB's and think "Man, there's nothing like a Mercedes Benz, nothing like it". Now that's gone, not so much because everyone and their mom has one, but more so because, like has been said before, the mystique that once was very much prevelant in the brand and it's cars has vanished. I say that the begining of the end of the magic and the lover affiar began w/ the M-class. It's like MB asked Jeep to manufacture a Grand Cherokee, but one that had to look like a Benz on the inside and out. It was such a slap dashed effort, and that one element would never elude this car for the remainder of its lifecycle. And to a very large degree it's scared the newest generation, because the legacy of the first generation is still very much intact w/ the looks and name of the new car. Beyond that, their cars IMO, are very very boring and uninteresting. It's as if MB has lost the cool that Cadillac now has as a luxury brand didn't have before. MB's are more cars for the elderly and social concious than the car that car nutz aspire to own. The one thing that's scored consistently for BMW, and is very much a key reason as to why the brand is as sucessful as it's been is that BMW has always defied convention and gone against the grain. That mentality of taking risks but always staying true to brand philosiphy will win out, every single time. Won me over 8 years ago and will be w/ me for all my days. X the A4 & C-class off of my list of cars to choose from for my new roadthrasher, it's between BMW and Chevrolet. Yes really.

 

[Matt]

"The one thing that's scored consistently for BMW, and is very much a key reason as to why the brand is as sucessful as it's been is that BMW has always defied convention and gone against the grain. That mentality of taking risks but always staying true to brand philosiphy will win out, every single time."


YES! That is it! BMW doesnt try to be everything to everyone as does Mercedes. I think you nailed it!

 

[NevadaJack]

It has lost its value and I'm sad to say that most of the loyal Benz customers may find themselves at the Lexus dealer picking up an LS.

You have got to be kidding...

 

[Deutsch]

That's what makes VW & MB so boring, they've gone soft trying to be all thigns to all people. BMW takes the high road and shoves all of it's ideas in your face and says "here take it, this is the best there is, you don't have a choice". It's worked against the brand, but even more so, it's worked for the better.

 

[NevadaJack]

^yea I suppose we will. But even if Mercedes does follow the S/CLS styling I dont think their image will improve. The S class is a good looking vehicle, but I dont look at that car and say "that truly is a Mercedes Benz". Mercedes doesnt have any design features that you can relate to its history as BMW and Audi do. BMW has its kidney grills and C piller window line that is traditional BMW styling. With the new Bangle designs you can take in the changes but also reflect on the past because some design principles never change. Mercedes doesnt have that. They dont have design features where a person can look at it and feel there looking at Mercedes' finest along with 130 years of history.

Where in the world is the Mercedes Benz grille not recognized as "THE" leader in the automobile industry. Don't get tied up in the ones who frequent these forums...the general public (at least in the US) still see the MB as the pinnacle of quality and performance.

 

[NevadaJack]

I've read and skim'd through several posts in here, mainly Mr. Merc's intial post. For whatever reason I don't have the paitence to skim through each and every post and disect words being said.

Yes to be selfish, here is my take.

There was once a time where I use to look at MB's and think "Man, there's nothing like a Mercedes Benz, nothing like it". Now that's gone, not so much because everyone and their mom has one, but more so because, like has been said before, the mystique that once was very much prevelant in the brand and it's cars has vanished. I say that the begining of the end of the magic and the lover affiar began w/ the M-class. It's like MB asked Jeep to manufacture a Grand Cherokee, but one that had to look like a Benz on the inside and out. It was such a slap dashed effort, and that one element would never elude this car for the remainder of its lifecycle. And to a very large degree it's scared the newest generation, because the legacy of the first generation is still very much intact w/ the looks and name of the new car. Beyond that, their cars IMO, are very very boring and uninteresting. It's as if MB has lost the cool that Cadillac now has as a luxury brand didn't have before. MB's are more cars for the elderly and social concious than the car that car nutz aspire to own. The one thing that's scored consistently for BMW, and is very much a key reason as to why the brand is as sucessful as it's been is that BMW has always defied convention and gone against the grain. That mentality of taking risks but always staying true to brand philosiphy will win out, every single time. Won me over 8 years ago and will be w/ me for all my days. X the A4 & C-class off of my list of cars to choose from for my new roadthrasher, it's between BMW and Chevrolet. Yes really.

There are a lot more "elderly people" than there are "car nutz." Your little world of experts forget the 120 years of buyers of MB and there are a lot of them still living...