F80 [2025-] [Spy Shots] Ferrari F80 Hybrid Hypercar - 2022 / 2023

[A.P.]

The big rear diffuser era has started, otherwise known as Venturi tunnel era.

Bet both of the new hypercars from McLaren and Ferrari will have it too.

 

[Sunny]

No car will ever reach the technology level of the AMG One, because it will forever remain the only car of its kind to put the F1 engine on the road.

But that is more of a testimony to the lack of common sense.

Don't get me wrong, as an enthusiast, I am glad Mercedes was stupid enough to undertake that painful endeavor.

 

[Revvd]

The big rear diffuser era has started, otherwise known as Venturi tunnel era.

Bet both of the new hypercars from McLaren and Ferrari will have it too.

I agree with your point, but it feels wrong to lump all of these in a category labeled Venturi tunnel cars.

I'm not sure if a flat floor ending with a diffuser even qualifies as a venturi tunnel. Effectively it's more like half of a venturi tunnel, since it's missing the part that constricts air on the inlet.
With mostly flat floor ahead, the difference in air pressure isn't as great as in a true venturi tunnel, which has higher air velocity in the middle - the part that sucks the car to the ground. Simple diffuser, despite its impressive size, in case of some of these cars, is not as effective solution in comparison.

The situation is reminiscent of Group C race cars with flat floor under the cockpit. Except nowadays it's not the technical regulation that mandates it, but rather the hybrid hypercars self impose it due to packaging of the battery packs. AMG One is the perfect demonstration:

In Tourbillon's case, I guess Bugatti prefer traditional seating position instead of the F1 style with raised legs (plus they don't need super high downforce in the first place).

T.50 is a very fascinating aero car, but again, not a true venturi tunnel representative.

Valkyrie is a different animal. It can afford to have massive venturi tunnels with its tiny battery and super slim cockpit. On top of that, it creates vortexes on the edges of the floor to seal the underbody, preventing outside air from spoiling the low pressure area inside. And it supercharges (so to speak) the venturi effect by generating vortexes inside of them. It's just a different level altogether.

Adamastor Furia is a another example of the same concept. I only recently found a picture that shows clearly its venturi inlets.

(BTW, check out the front fenders completely covered from the inside. That's something not even Valkyrie has. The turning radius must be so shit. )

Even when you look at a car like Zenvo Aurora, which rides the current trend of high air-throughput design and has very radical packaging, you realize those guys also don't take full advantage of ground effects.
Sure, it's cool to have actual front wings, barge boards and fenders separated from the main body. But with mostly flat floor underneath, it makes me think the aero is partly made for visual effect rather than autistic pursuit of the guiding principle of form-follows-function. Or maybe they just know they'll be too heavy to take advantage of even more downforce.

To contrast it with Praga Bohema, you can immediately see this is the more serious approach to aero. Even though this doesn't have the same concept of raised nose, like Valkyrie, it still incorporates venturi inlets in its floor design.

Supercar System's B-2 Spirit prototype also nicely shows this concept.

I doubt the F250 will be using venturi tunnels, on account of it being hybrid, where (I assume) the V6 isn't the dominant part of the ICE/EV power split. But that car has another cool trick in its sleeve that I'm curious about - the massive S-duct on the front.
Also, Ferrari with a huge wing is a welcomed change of pace (I'll ignore the SF90XX for the convenience of my argument ).

As for the McLaren W1... Given that its V8 will be shared with the future Super Series models, I expect very high ICE power output. Way higher than on the Ferrari. I think they even hinted at the hybrid element being lighter than Artura's, which sounds a bit suspect, tbh. This all leads me to believe a smaller battery pack could allow them to apply more radical aerodynamics. I'm really looking forward to it. Not least because the F250 seems like a mostly known quantity, whereas the W1 hasn't even been teased yet.

 

[Revvd]

Artist's impression from the latest Top Gear magazine. Not sure why they decided to "improve" on the stylized NACA duct from the prototypes.

 

[Jonathan19]

Rumors: F250 have 900hp from V6 engine alone with 300hp from ev motors with 0 to 100km/h in 2.15s and 200km/h in 5s.

 

[Revvd]

I doubt Ferrari would do such highly strung engine. Maybe this leak source is giving us combined power of the V6 and the MGU-K on the crank or the transmission. Then it would make more sense... 750 hp ICE and 3x 150 hp (with two of those powering front wheels).

 

[Sunny]

I doubt Ferrari would do such highly strung engine.

With the advent of hybrids, you can. Just use big ass turbo(s) to make gobs of power at the high end and use electric drives to counter any lag and torque fill for response.

 

[Bridster]

With the advent of hybrids, you can. Just use big ass turbo(s) to make gobs of power and use electric drives to counter any lag and torque fill the low end.

It's not just about the turbolag, though. At 220PS/L, the engine in the 296 already is one of the ones with the highest density around. There is nothing with more than about 250PS/L - and at that point you are already talking Koenigsegg which doesn't have the same reliability and durability standards as Ferrari probably does. So I don't see how they would still have a headroom of 80PS/L on that engine. Even if they increased the capacity to 3.5L (which they might not want to do because then they can't claim it's the same engine as in their LMH car), that would still be 257PS/L.

Well, I don't want to say anything definitively... maybe they decided they could live with worse engine life, or maybe they've pulled off some sort of engineering miracle, but 900PS from engine still seems extremely doubtful. 800PS without any unusual drawbacks would already be a great achievement.

 

[Sunny]

It's not just about the turbolag, though. At 220PS/L, the engine in the 296 already is one of the ones with the highest density around. There is nothing with more than about 250PS/L - and at that point you are already talking Koenigsegg which doesn't have the same reliability and durability standards as Ferrari probably does. So I don't see how they would still have a headroom of 80PS/L on that engine. Even if they increased the capacity to 3.5L (which they might not want to do because then they can't claim it's the same engine as in their LMH car), that would still be 257PS/L.

Well, I don't want to say anything definitively... maybe they decided they could live with worse engine life, or maybe they've pulled off some sort of engineering miracle, but 900PS from engine still seems extremely doubtful. 800PS without any unusual drawbacks would already be a great achievement.

I am no engine engineer, but isn't engine life just matter of beefing up the internals? And of course being a hypercar, that would be hardly driven in most cases, I don't know engine life is even the focus. They could even stipulate some crazy engine rebuild/maintenance schedule.

All just speculation on my part, guess we will soon know.

 

[Bridster]

I am no engine engineer, but isn't engine life just matter of beefing up the internals?

If that was the case, then all the 2000hp+ tuner cars could drive around with perfect reliability - while in reality they can only survive a few pulls.

You can beef up pistons, or conrods, the block, crankshaft, but most of the problems come from the pressure and the heat in the combustion chamber. For example, you get a blowby past the piston rings, the oil gets burned too, you get a warp in the cylinder because of the uneven temperature, soon the piston starts to slap and with the extra forces involved that's the end. Another common problem is the head gasket which you can't really make much tougher because it needs to be from a relatively soft material to begin with to seal properly. And in general because you are burning oil so much more quickly this will lead to a lot of other problems that can result from oil starvation - like problems with main bearings, with the turbo itself, etc, etc.

And yeah, they could just decide to go with some ridiculous engine life and service intervals - like on the AMG One which also pushes over 300PS/L - but that just seems counterproductive to me. If they really needed that much power from the ICE alone, they could have used their V8 (or the V12 for that matter). Never mind that to reach 300PS/L with their V6, they would likely also have to go over 10k RPM, so that's even more work.

 

[klier]

No car will ever reach the technology level of the AMG One, because it will forever remain the only car of its kind to put the F1 engine on the road.

You're the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[Sunny]

If that was the case, then all the 2000hp+ tuner cars could drive around with perfect reliability - while in reality they can only survive a few pulls.

We are not exactly talking about a tuner though, right?

And yeah, they could just decide to go with some ridiculous engine life and service intervals - like on the AMG One which also pushes over 300PS/L - but that just seems counterproductive to me. If they really needed that much power from the ICE alone, they could have used their V8 (or the V12 for that matter). Never mind that to reach 300PS/L with their V6, they would likely also have to go over 10k RPM, so that's even more work.

True. A big TT v8 would be the easiest way. Anyway I have no idea what engine or specs this car will have. Or even if it is a v6? Guess we will know soon.

 

[klier]

We are not exactly talking about a tuner though, right?



True. A big TT v8 would be the easiest way. Anyway I have no idea what engine or specs this car will have. Or even if it is a v6? Guess we will know soon.

A 6 pot with proper internals (like forged stuff) can reliably have well over 1000 hp right?

 

[Jonathan19]

From @derek.photography on Instagram

 

[Sunny]

A 6 pot with proper internals (like forged stuff) can reliably have well over 1000 hp right?

If you are asking me, I frankly don't know. I guess it depends primarily on how much the 6 pot displaces and and what your definition of "reliably" is - Camry reliable or typical hypercar reliable.

All we have are data points -
A Ferrari F1 1.6L engine makes around 800+HP and good for 7-8 race weekends (~4000 miles).
Ferrari's 3L V6 in GTB makes 650HP and is probably good for 100K+ miles ?

I can't see how they can't make something in between - something that puts out 800+HP and is good for 50k+ miles before some crazy maintenance.

There are tuned BMW S58s that make 800+HP supposedly "reliably".

 

[klier]

There are tuned BMW S58s that make 800+HP supposedly "reliably".

My point exactly. The GTR and 911 come to mind too. Displacement all between 3-4 liters, and reliability more towards a Camry.

 

[Syris]

I think of these two as do-over of sorts. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying P1 and LaFerrari were bad or anything... But looking at what type of hybrid supercar is produced today, both of these old halo cars turned out to be an evolutionary dead end. So far it looks like Porsche's concept was the right one. Unfortunately, halo supercars play a performance game, and with massive power you kinda need motor(s) on the front axle. Both for traction and regen.

Naturally, established brands will be playing it safe. They can't afford to make disastrous projects like AMG One. But they could bring the same level of performance.
While the tech probably won't be anything we haven't seen before, I'm mostly just curious about the aero. The old cars had active bits here and there, but it all seems a bit tame now, living in post-Valkyrie era, where even a 911 can have serious downforce.
Even if they are all similar, I just can't wait to read that group test of F250 vs P18 vs Valhalla.

Don't think the Valhalla will compete with the likes of F250 and W1. Neither peformance nor price wise. Is it even considered a hypercar? On top of that, when are they planning on releasing it? It's been almost 5 years and nowhere to be seen...

 

[Bucketslash11]

A 6 pot with proper internals (like forged stuff) can reliably have well over 1000 hp right?

the AMS Alpha Omega GT-R is running at 2000+hp

 

[A.P.]

Don't think the Valhalla will compete with the likes of F250 and W1. Neither peformance nor price wise. Is it even considered a hypercar? On top of that, when are they planning on releasing it? It's been almost 5 years and nowhere to be seen...

200-250 hp less and 200-250 kg heavier than W1 and F250. And $1-2 million cheaper.

I would say it would be a nice underdog, like the 918 was. Assuming Aston lives up to the claims.

 

[Revvd]

Don't think the Valhalla will compete with the likes of F250 and W1. Neither peformance nor price wise. Is it even considered a hypercar? On top of that, when are they planning on releasing it? It's been almost 5 years and nowhere to be seen...

It's definitely the underdog. Not as limited and exclusive, but it offers similar tech and probably very comparable performance. I view it as a budget AMG One