CarAndDriver: Lexus LFA vs Ferrari 599 GTB HGTE Fiorano

[Guibo]

the luxury of a Bentley? please.

If I wanted to compare the LFA with say, a 458 and see what the LFA offers over it in terms of options, what are they? Im not asking about the specs of the car. what makes it a "bentley"?

You were the one complaining that it added all these heavy luxury items and likened it to what someone would want in a Bentley. What luxuries does a Continental Supersports offer that are not in the LFA?

Again we go back 6-7 years for this...When the SLR was released, what was it compared to? The Carrera GT and Enzo. It was on their caliber. It was the GT that would keep up with the fasted supercars of the day.

Not really. It was slower than the Enzo in a straight line; both the Enzo and CGT beat it by 2-3 seconds on a short handling course used by Auto Motor und Sport. To say that it could keep up with these cars is a little misleading. A Ford GT at only 1/4th the cost could probably keep up with it or beat it.

Lambornima, let's use your 458 as an example: It's been tested to be faster than the LP570-4. Faster in a straight line in Euro tests, faster on track (Auto Bild and TopGear). It has a gearbox that makes the Lambo's look archaic. It has a prestige that Lamborghini, as good as it is, can't even touch. Yet Lambo prices the LP570 at a higher starting point than the 458. How can Lamborghini justify this?
(We could also extend this in large degree to the LP670, which costs a lot more than a 458.)

 

[330CIZHP]

MotorVision (1.6 KM or 1 mile handling track):

SLR: 57.5
Enzo: 54.9
Carrera GT: 53.8
Murcielago (old 6.2 liter): 55.8
Aston: 58.8
Bentley: 61.6

SLR was not competitive with the Ford GT or Carrera GT or Enzo around the track. Too big, too heavy and sluggish 5 speed auto.

p.s. Lexus never had shortage of buyers for the LFA. Let's not forget Lexus (for unknown reason) rejected A-list American celebrity race car driver/actor and host Zachary Levi as an LFA buyer.

Isn't that the same BS thrown about with the SLR? I don't think anyone gave MB as much crap as Lexus is getting.

Oh wait...it's not European. Nevermind, I guess all the hate is fine. /sarcasm

Seriously. LF-A is getting way more crap than it should just because it's a Lexus.

I guess...

 

[lambornima]

You were the one complaining that it added all these heavy luxury items and likened it to what someone would want in a Bentley. What luxuries does a Continental Supersports offer that are not in the LFA?


Not really. It was slower than the Enzo in a straight line; both the Enzo and CGT beat it by 2-3 seconds on a short handling course used by Auto Motor und Sport. To say that it could keep up with these cars is a little misleading. A Ford GT at only 1/4th the cost could probably keep up with it or beat it.

Lambornima, let's use your 458 as an example: It's been tested to be faster than the LP570-4. Faster in a straight line in Euro tests, faster on track (Auto Bild and TopGear). It has a gearbox that makes the Lambo's look archaic. It has a prestige that Lamborghini, as good as it is, can't even touch. Yet Lambo prices the LP570 at a higher starting point than the 458. How can Lamborghini justify this?
(We could also extend this in large degree to the LP670, which costs a lot more than a 458.)

from a dig the SLR would beat a Carrera GT 9/10 times because its launches were very consistant. From a roll the cars are dead even. races between the two cars and magazines times support this. and yes the Enzo was quicker but not completely out there (ie the way a Veyron would be).

as for the Ford GT:

YouTube - ford gt vs lamborgini murcielago.

YouTube - c6 z06 vs ford gt

the Ford GT is about as quick as a Z06 pending drivers and slightly quicker than an old Murcielago. the SLR is quite a bit faster and is more along the lines of a ZR1. to say the SLR can keep up with a Carrera GT isnt misleading at all.

as for the 458 vs LP570. both cars are from very rare and exclusive brands though Lambo doesnt have the heritage of the ferrari, it has lots of great history and they still only make <2000 cars a year. the lambo comes from a company that doesnt make a car with less than 550 hp In a straight line the LP570 and 458 are dead even from both a standstill and a roll-on.

around a track Top Gear managed a slower time with the 570 than they did the 560. then again, Quattroruote set their fastest lap with the 570 so perhaps we need to wait for more tests. keep in mind the Gallardo platform is now 7 years old, the fact that ferrari's newest weapon can only JUST nudge it out says wonders. and when it comes down to it the LP Gallardos are a direct competitor to the 458 and hence they are priced similarly.

now lets look at the 458 (and the reason I pick the 458 is because its also new) and LFA and for the LFA fans lets NOT look at price... the 458 is quicker without argument. both on track and in a straight line. the 458 has a MUCH better transmission. the 458 may not have the CF frame of the LFA but its still lighter. interior wise, the 458 looks fantastic and when spec'ed beyond black on black on black actually looks VERY nice. alas the LFA can nudge it out in this catagory. I certainly expected more from one of the largest car makers in the world. what luxuries can you not get in the 458 that you can in the LFA? power heated seats, sat nav, rearview camera and/or sensors, climate control, mp3 connectivity etc etc are all available. the 458 has a better suspension system, a better transmission, a better traction control system, active aero.

I can be called a badge snob all day, but at the end of the day a Ferrari is a Ferrari and a Lexus is a Lexus. If exclusivity is desirable then you cant call out someone for considering the fact that there are 5000 ferraris made per year and probably 5000 Lexus' made per week. (tho I dont know the exact number).

I strongly stand by my position that the LFA is an amazing car and as a sportcar is a competitor to cars like the SLS AMG.

 

[330CIZHP]

I strongly stand by my position that the LFA is an amazing car and as a sportcar is a competitor to cars like the SLS AMG.

And the igorance keeps coming. You keep digging yourself in a bigger hole.

LFA a competitor for SLS AMG despite it killing it by over 6 seconds around Nurburgring? Yet, it is completely fine for you to continue to jam the LP570-4 to be a competitor to be 458 Italia when it was 2 seconds slower than LFA despite LFA having a huge handicap on the temporary street tires?

458 Italia is always supplied to journalists with the optional set of custom-built Pilot PS2 tires rather than the factory stock Bridgestone S001 tires, which happen to be LFA's temporary tires.

Even AutoZeitung in a head to head comparison claimed LFA was too track oriented compared fairly and objectively to the SLS AMG when it beat the SLS AMG around Contidrom long 3.8 km track by almost 2 seconds and matched its straight line performance. The Stig had similar sentiments about LFA over SLS AMG.

Lambo, how about you GTFO out of my thread and leave everyone in peace and go ramble your marginalizing hatred somewhere else.


Carrera GT vs Enzo vs Ford GT

 

[NarutoRamen]

Again we go back 6-7 years for this...When the SLR was released, what was it compared to? The Carrera GT and Enzo. It was on their caliber. It was the GT that would keep up with the fasted supercars of the day. the LFA is being compared to cars that are technically inferior to it and in a completely different price bracket.

I think the perfect car to prove my point is the 458.

Well fine. You don't wanna bring up SLR..or you think it's a bad example.

Reventon. You're game is up son. Nothing on that car screams "over 1 million". Yet all the Lambo fanboys took it as the second coming of Christ.

If you're going to give Lexus so much crap for this, I hope to god you better find me posts where you berated and demolished Lamborghini for their stupidity on that car.

What about it? Put up or just say you're a fanboy hating on the Lexus and bounce.

 

[Guibo]

from a dig the SLR would beat a Carrera GT 9/10 times because its launches were very consistant. From a roll the cars are dead even. races between the two cars and magazines times support this. and yes the Enzo was quicker but not completely out there (ie the way a Veyron would be).

as for the Ford GT:

YouTube - ford gt vs lamborgini murcielago.

YouTube - c6 z06 vs ford gt

the Ford GT is about as quick as a Z06 pending drivers and slightly quicker than an old Murcielago. the SLR is quite a bit faster and is more along the lines of a ZR1. to say the SLR can keep up with a Carrera GT isnt misleading at all.

Looks like the Ford GT beat that Murcielago in the video. You didn't mention that a modified Z06 was fast. Who here is debating that? There are videos of them beating stock ZR1's. So what? That doesnt say anything about stock Z06 vs Ford GT. I'm not sure videos taken with different drivers in traffic mean much.
But let's take out the variable of the driver and look at same-day, same-driver tests.

Auto Motor und Sport, 2006
0-300
Ford GT: 33.6
SLR: 36.9
Z06: 41.8

To say that the SLR can keep up with a CGT on a track is misleading.

as for the 458 vs LP570. both cars are from very rare and exclusive brands though Lambo doesnt have the heritage of the ferrari, it has lots of great history and they still only make <2000 cars a year. the lambo comes from a company that doesnt make a car with less than 550 hp

Whoa, why does production volume suddenly matter when before it didn't help to justify why the LFA costs what it does?
Lambo also started as a company that started with making tractors. Do you deny that Lexus are in a far better position now to play in the supercar market than Lamborghini were when they first started?

around a track Top Gear managed a slower time with the 570 than they did the 560. then again, Quattroruote set their fastest lap with the 570 so perhaps we need to wait for more tests. keep in mind the Gallardo platform is now 7 years old, the fact that ferrari's newest weapon can only JUST nudge it out says wonders. and when it comes down to it the LP Gallardos are a direct competitor to the 458 and hence they are priced similarly.

But the 458 tested on the same day as the 570 was faster. QR test wasn't a same-day test.
LFA isn't a direct competitor to either of these cars, so we shouldn't necessarily expect it to be priced similarly.

now lets look at the 458 (and the reason I pick the 458 is because its also new) and LFA and for the LFA fans lets NOT look at price... the 458 is quicker without argument. both on track and in a straight line. the 458 has a MUCH better transmission. the 458 may not have the CF frame of the LFA but its still lighter. interior wise, the 458 looks fantastic and when spec'ed beyond black on black on black actually looks VERY nice. alas the LFA can nudge it out in this catagory. I certainly expected more from one of the largest car makers in the world. what luxuries can you not get in the 458 that you can in the LFA? power heated seats, sat nav, rearview camera and/or sensors, climate control, mp3 connectivity etc etc are all available. the 458 has a better suspension system, a better transmission, a better traction control system, active aero.

Of course we'd expect the 458 to be lighter. It doesn't have a torque tube, counter gear set, or much of anything we'd expect of a front-engined car. I'm pretty sure the radiators are mounted in the rear too. We also don't know how well it withstands repeated lapping; there's a thread on F-chat right now of a 458 that has chunked its tires and showed rapid break wear after only 1700km and 1 trackday. We also don't know how well, in basic form, it would withstand a grueling 24 Hour lap of the Nordschleife. A large reason why the LFA weighs as much as it does is because they added reinforcements to pretty much eliminate any chassis flex.
Just because a car company is large does not mean we should expect it to beat Ferrari or Lamborghini. We do not see anything from General Motors, for a long time the largest automaker in the world, beating Lambo/Ferrari in these categories. Would Ferrari or Lambo be able to produce such cars without stewardship by Fiat and VW? Not so sure about that...
A lot of what you describe can make a Zonda F look very under-equipped. Yet who here thinks a Zonda is overpriced?

You may think the LFA competes with the SLS, and in objective terms, you'd probably be right. Subjectively, the LFA feels very different. And AMG's own Tobias Moers would disagree with you if you think they're marketplace competitors. He has come out and flat said these two cars aren't comparable as competitors.

 

[Mr Robert]

What does that "Haters gonna hate" mean?

 

[lambornima]

Well fine. You don't wanna bring up SLR..or you think it's a bad example.

Reventon. You're game is up son. Nothing on that car screams "over 1 million". Yet all the Lambo fanboys took it as the second coming of Christ.

If you're going to give Lexus so much crap for this, I hope to god you better find me posts where you berated and demolished Lamborghini for their stupidity on that car.

What about it? Put up or just say you're a fanboy hating on the Lexus and bounce.

I didnt say the SLR was a bad example. You just cant parallel it with the LFA for the reasons I mentioned its the wrong example.

Reventon. I dont have threads here nor can I find any for you but I personally dont see the Reventon as a million dollar supercar. It may look the part but we all know its an LP640 underneath.

"Second coming of christ?" the Reventon hasnt been well recieved on lambopower (the lambo forum Im on frequently) as most enthusiast see the car as a rebodied LP640 not worth its pricetag.

In my PMs with Guibo I paralleled the LFA with the Reventon.

 

[lambornima]

And the igorance keeps coming. You keep digging yourself in a bigger hole.

LFA a competitor for SLS AMG despite it killing it by over 6 seconds around Nurburgring? Yet, it is completely fine for you to continue to jam the LP570-4 to be a competitor to be 458 Italia when it was 2 seconds slower than LFA despite LFA having a huge handicap on the temporary street tires?

458 Italia is always supplied to journalists with the optional set of custom-built Pilot PS2 tires rather than the factory stock Bridgestone S001 tires, which happen to be LFA's temporary tires.

Even AutoZeitung in a head to head comparison claimed LFA was too track oriented compared fairly and objectively to the SLS AMG when it beat the SLS AMG around Contidrom long 3.8 km track by almost 2 seconds and matched its straight line performance. The Stig had similar sentiments about LFA over SLS AMG.

Lambo, how about you GTFO out of my thread and leave everyone in peace and go ramble your marginalizing hatred somewhere else.

first sentence: useless
second sectence:SLS gets beat on the track, but beats it on a straight. seems fair enough to me.

third sentence: useless and based on no evidence. in the test of the 458s they have usually been on P Zero's and not P Zero Corsas if im not mistaken. either way now your making even more excuses as to why the brand new 400K supercar cant keep up it the new entry level ferrari.

forth sentence goes back to the second sentence.

last part: cant handle an discussion without getting your panties in a bunch can you? it was a matter of time before the "STFU"s and "GTFO"s came out.

edit: Guibo I will reply to your post later tonight or tomorrow.

 

[bum-man]

So suddenly we're not entitled to opinions, so we have to try and convince other people that they are wrong or tell them to GTFO?...We are not allowed to hate a car here?

 

[Guibo]

Reventon. I dont have threads here nor can I find any for you but I personally dont see the Reventon as a million dollar supercar. It may look the part but we all know its an LP640 underneath.

In my PMs with Guibo I paralleled the LFA with the Reventon.

While it is true that in our PM's, you don't seem to think highly of the Reventon, your response to the car on the forums was quite different.

For example, here you are justifying its price by referring to volume and tooling required for modified parts:
"this car is ment to be automotive art. a pure expression of design. a pioneer of design. a rolling sculpture. just look at that engine cover! a design as dramatic and extreme as this is only seen on concept cars. and this is what the Reventon basicaly is; a concept car put into very limited production. why does it cost as much as it does? because there are more new body panels on it than there are units produced think about it. everything from the tail lights to the exhaust tip to the bumpers, diffusers, fuel filler cap, doors, engine cover, wheels, dash-display, etc etc etc are all new. new molds were needed to be made for each of them, to then only produce 35 units. that'll yield a pretty high $/unit resulting in such a steep pricetag."
http://www.germancarforum.com/murci...on-roadster-photos-revealed-2.html#post411871

More justifications:
"according to a rennteam member who is in the plastics industry, the mold for the headlight cover alone would be a 500K investment. and then there is the new bumber, front and rear. the new side "skirts". the new doors, new engine cover, new hood, new tail pipe, new headlights, new tail lights, new air openings, new gas tank cover, new rims and the CF inserts etc. then there is windtunnel testing that needs to be done and the gauge clusters. all this takes a lot of money, and if the headlight covers alone are a 500ish K investment, then im doubting whether or not lambo are making that much profit on the Reventon."
http://www.germancarforum.com/inter...borghini-reventon-impressions.html#post265679

my new favourite car

Reventon is a modified Murcielago, based around an existing steel frame and existing drivetrain. Not a CF-tubbed car with completely new engine and transmission, and damn near everything else except sat/nav controller unique to itself. If you're going to justify the price of the Reventon on unique body parts and low volume, it marks you out as something of a hypocrite when you don't extend the same courtesy to other makes.

 

[330CIZHP]

LFA vs SLS AMG drag race:

". In actuality, it's all down to tire wear, tire temperature, surface quality, and launch success. Both vehicles must shift once before they exceed the 60-mph mark, and even after a dozen or so full-throttle side-by-side sprints, the results were pretty much a dead heat. . In actuality, it's all down to tire wear, tire temperature, surface quality, and launch success. Both vehicles must shift once before they exceed the 60-mph mark, and even after a dozen or so full-throttle side-by-side sprints, the results were pretty much a dead heat. "

(Car magazine SLS AMG vs LFA, 2010)

AutoZeitung magazine (SLS AMG vs LFA)

LFA: 0 - 100 km/h: 3.8 seconds (no launch control. neutral dropping)
0 - 200 km/h: 11.4 seconds

SLS AMG: 0 - 100 km/h: 3.8 seconds (launch control, no dsc)
0 - 200 km/h: 11.4 seconds

AutoZeitung notes: (This explains why LFA acceleration results have been so inconsistent in European magazines.)

SLS AMG launches same way every time with launch control. On the other hand, LFA results achieved several many tries. LFA too difficult to launch without any available launch control and gives highly inconsistent results. If not launched perfectly, the car overpowers and either burns the 305 section wide rear tires or losing revs suddenly when the tires 'bite' results in lugging badly off the line.

Contidrom (3.8 KM long track):

'Am Bremspunkt vor der Spitzkehre erreicht das Duett Geschwindigkeiten von 204 bis 208 km/h.
English: 'At the braking point before the hairpin, the duet reached speeds of 204-208 km / h.

Hier sind stabile Bremsen gefragt, während es im Highspeed Sektor auf eine gute Balance ankommt.
English: Here stable brakes are required, while in the high-speed sector to a good balance matters.

Im Dynamik Sektor zählen Agilität und spontane Reaktionen.
English: In the dynamic sector include agility and spontaneous reactions. "

Die Zwischenergebnisse wurden in diesen drei Sektoren gemessen:
English: The interim results were measured in these three sectors:

Start/Ziel Sektor: Lexus LFA 21,85 sec - Mercedes SLS AMG 21,34 sec.
English: Start / Target sector: Lexus LFA 21.85 sec - 21.34 sec AMG Mercedes SLS

Highspeed Sektor: Lexus LFA 37,96 sec - Mercedes SLS AMG 38,68 sec.
English: Highspeed Sector: Lexus LFA 37.96 sec - 38.68 sec AMG Mercedes SLS

Dynamik Sektor: Lexus LFA 35,85 sec - Mercedes SLS AMG 37,48 sec.
English: Dynamic Sector: Lexus LFA 35.85 sec - 37.48 sec AMG Mercedes SLS

RUNDENZEITEN: Lexus LFA 1:35,66 min - Mercedes SLS AMG 1:37,50 min.
Engish: LAP: Lexus LFA 1:35,66 min - Mercedes AMG SLS 1:37,50 min

Conclusion:

'Der LFA dominiert ihn (Mercedes SLS AMG) in der Art eines präzisen Formel-Renners'.
English: 'The LFA, it dominates (AMG Mercedes SLS) in the way of a precise formula-racer'

 

[lambornima]

While it is true that in our PM's, you don't seem to think highly of the Reventon, your response to the car on the forums was quite different.

For example, here you are justifying its price by referring to volume and tooling required for modified parts:
"this car is ment to be automotive art. a pure expression of design. a pioneer of design. a rolling sculpture. just look at that engine cover! a design as dramatic and extreme as this is only seen on concept cars. and this is what the Reventon basicaly is; a concept car put into very limited production. why does it cost as much as it does? because there are more new body panels on it than there are units produced think about it. everything from the tail lights to the exhaust tip to the bumpers, diffusers, fuel filler cap, doors, engine cover, wheels, dash-display, etc etc etc are all new. new molds were needed to be made for each of them, to then only produce 35 units. that'll yield a pretty high $/unit resulting in such a steep pricetag."
http://www.germancarforum.com/murci...on-roadster-photos-revealed-2.html#post411871

More justifications:
"according to a rennteam member who is in the plastics industry, the mold for the headlight cover alone would be a 500K investment. and then there is the new bumber, front and rear. the new side "skirts". the new doors, new engine cover, new hood, new tail pipe, new headlights, new tail lights, new air openings, new gas tank cover, new rims and the CF inserts etc. then there is windtunnel testing that needs to be done and the gauge clusters. all this takes a lot of money, and if the headlight covers alone are a 500ish K investment, then im doubting whether or not lambo are making that much profit on the Reventon."
http://www.germancarforum.com/inter...borghini-reventon-impressions.html#post265679

my new favourite car

Reventon is a modified Murcielago, based around an existing steel frame and existing drivetrain. Not a CF-tubbed car with completely new engine and transmission, and damn near everything else except sat/nav controller unique to itself. If you're going to justify the price of the Reventon on unique body parts and low volume, it marks you out as something of a hypocrite when you don't extend the same courtesy to other makes.

In my PMs to you I didnt "not think highly of the Reventon". I love the reventon I think it is automotive art. a concept car for the roads. I just dont see it as a million dollar supercar the way a Veyron is.

my understanding of prices at the time (CF molds) was mislead by what I had been told by others. plain and simple. looking back on it now, regardless of how much the reventon needed to cost to break over (OR whether or not it was a money grab) the car just isnt a million dollar supercar the way a Veyron is. I didnt think so different back then either. as an enthusiasts I can look at big past the number crunching and say the Reventon never should have been priced the way it was because its not at its soul a million dollar supercar.

Dont get me wrong I love the Reventon and I also love the LFA but just as the Reventon is a spiritual competitor to other million dollar cars like the Veyron, the LFA should compete with cars like the SLS and 458.

I think EVERYONE is misreading what Ive been writing all along. Technically (due to costs for developement, materials, production, regulation etc) the LFA probably needs to cost even more for Toyota to break even. yet its not a spiritual competitor other 400K cars because of performance and badge.

I havent said anywhere that volume doesnt affect price and it was nice of you go find me quotes of myself, but it really doesnt show anything. Now I dont know if the Reventon needed to cost as much as it did because lambo wanted to at least break even, or if they wanted a quick cash grab. EITHER WAY the Reventon is not at its soul a million dollar supercar. and the LFA is not at its sould a competitor to the top of the line Ferraris.

 

[lambornima]

LFA vs SLS AMG drag race:

". In actuality, it's all down to tire wear, tire temperature, surface quality, and launch success. Both vehicles must shift once before they exceed the 60-mph mark, and even after a dozen or so full-throttle side-by-side sprints, the results were pretty much a dead heat.. In actuality, it's all down to tire wear, tire temperature, surface quality, and launch success. Both vehicles must shift once before they exceed the 60-mph mark, and even after a dozen or so full-throttle side-by-side sprints, the results were pretty much a dead heat. "

(Car magazine SLS AMG vs LFA, 2010)

AutoZeitung magazine (SLS AMG vs LFA)

LFA: 0 - 100 km/h: 3.8 seconds (no launch control. neutral dropping)
0 - 200 km/h: 11.4 seconds

SLS AMG: 0 - 100 km/h: 3.8 seconds (launch control, no dsc)
0 - 200 km/h: 11.4 seconds

YouTube - Mercedes SLS AMG VS Lexus LF-A by Autocar

even after they got moving the LFA didnt make up any ground (infact it continued to fall behind)

Im sorry but you cant be a 400K "supercar" and struggle with an SLS. not when you're the newest and greatest from one of the largest car makers in the world.

having looked at their lap times, the LFA is a tad bit quicker.

 

[330CIZHP]

Like mentioned above, LFA without any launch control burns the tires while SLS AMG launch control launches consistently. Read the notes from AutoZeitung and they had to run LFA several times before they got the best time while SLS AMG runs the same 10/10 times. That white prototype is the oldest one (same one in this HGTE video).

Horst Von Saurma said the samething that LFA cannot be launched fast easily since it easily torches the massive 305 section rear tires since he had no launch control.

If both cars are launched evenly (which was not in the AutoCar) case, like AutoZeitung and Car magazine said, the drag race is a dead heat. Again, a good launch control makes all the difference in an SMG car especially where there is no way to modulate the clutch manually to control wheelspin and maximize traction. It has been a consistent problem in every test and it was all Lexus' fault for not putting launch control till the very late stages of the prototypes.

Around a race track, 1.8 seconds on a 2 mile track like AutoZeitung said, LFA dominates the SLS AMG even in the high speed straight sector where LFA continues to maintain the distance over 140 mph. AutoZeitung concluded, LFA was too track oriented to be compared fairly against the SLS AMG. Around Nurburgring, the difference stretches to 6 seconds.

In a side by side race, LFA beat the R8 V10 every time by 3 - 3.5 car lengths to 100 mph with new launch control and SLS AMG is a bit quicker than R8 V10. By 130 mph, it should easily stretch to around 5 car lengths. Without launch control, AWD R8 V10 will eat the LFA till about 110 - 120 mph.

2010 Audi R8 vs 2011 Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG vs 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo Comparison Specs - Motor Trend

This is how it looks like at the finish line at 115 mph, which is around 10 - 11 car lengths:








This was the first ever test done with the new LFA launch control system that limits wheelspin and it proved how fast LFA can launch matching AWD R8 V10 off the line with r-tronic launch control and then pulling away. Again, Lexus made the mistake of putting it in too late and it did more damage than good to provide prototypes without the proper gear and giving unfinished products to the press.

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YouTube - Mercedes SLS AMG VS Lexus LF-A by Autocar

even after they got moving the LFA didnt make up any ground (infact it continued to fall behind)

Im sorry but you cant be a 400K "supercar" and struggle with an SLS. not when you're the newest and greatest from one of the largest car makers in the world.

having looked at their lap times, the LFA is a tad bit quicker.

 

[TF110]

New here, well not really. Just a first time poster.

I've watched the videos from the front page a few times, just to hear the noises each car makes. But when watching it, you'll notice the LFA never loses touch with the 599. In the wet or the dry. This is still a prototype LFA. As far as I'm concerned it has nothing on the production car. Only one of the newer demo cars should be considered anything close to the production car.

These older cars have near 10,000 miles on them. These are the prototype's seen on the ring from over a year ago! Remember back in 09' around this time of year there were a boatload of spy shots from the ring with 'production' LFAs? Well these are the cars that were spied! They don't have launch control, they don't have the final tires, they don't have anything that can be considered Production except their body lines. When do people base demo cars performances as production? In only a few months, starting in January or February, first LFAs will be delivered. Hopefully we'll see a few of the guys put up some numbers for us!

 

[Guibo]

In my PMs to you I didnt "not think highly of the Reventon". I love the reventon I think it is automotive art. a concept car for the roads. I just dont see it as a million dollar supercar the way a Veyron is.

It isn't a million dollar supercar the way the Veyron is. The Veyron is selling at around 300 units so far. The Reventon is barely 1/10th that. So, price/volume make sense for the Reventon.

I think there's a big difference in saying you love a car vs saying you really like it and wouldn't pay for it even if you had the money.

my understanding of prices at the time (CF molds) was mislead by what I had been told by others. plain and simple. looking back on it now, regardless of how much the reventon needed to cost to break over (OR whether or not it was a money grab) the car just isnt a million dollar supercar the way a Veyron is.

"What you had been told by others." Don't you think your view of a car and what it's worth is shaped by others? If they were wrong then, what makes your view now any different? Like I said, you are sociologically conditioned to view cars a certain way based on how you've been discussing them. Others are not so concerned about performance or performance/$ or badge heritage. That much was clear when I conveyed to you that there are indeed people (not dealers) buying the LFA. Of course, when you're frequenting forums populated largelyby "enthusiasts," your view of the market is skewed. You could spend 20 years on your forums and never find an LFA buyer. Find yourself a forum frequented by CEOs and the truly, insanely wealthy and you'll see they view things differently; the assumption being, of course, that such people even post on forums to any significant degree.

I think EVERYONE is misreading what Ive been writing all along. Technically (due to costs for developement, materials, production, regulation etc) the LFA probably needs to cost even more for Toyota to break even. yet its not a spiritual competitor other 400K cars because of performance and badge.

With only 500 units, was it ever meant to be? The badge isn't putting off customers who have come to expect a certain level of quality and service from Lexus.

I havent said anywhere that volume doesnt affect price and it was nice of you go find me quotes of myself, but it really doesnt show anything. Now I dont know if the Reventon needed to cost as much as it did because lambo wanted to at least break even, or if they wanted a quick cash grab. EITHER WAY the Reventon is not at its soul a million dollar supercar. and the LFA is not at its sould a competitor to the top of the line Ferraris.

Of course not. The 599 has probably sold in the thousands by now. GTO? Sold out in one week, and if you wanted one at MSRP, you better hope you've already bought a Ferrari before.
You seemed to be saying before that the LFA's volume doesn't justify the price: You are cynical about Lexus's decision to produce that few at that volume. Had it occurred to you that Lexus would like residuals to stay strong? You can find used SLR, CGT, Murcielagos at massively discounted prices all day long on ebay. And you still haven't found out if Lexus even want a long-term production capacity for LFA-type automobiles.
Of course I had to go find those quotes; did you think you were going to bring them up? You were given the chance...
The fact is, you only resort to volume when it fits your argument: in justifying the Reventon's price, and in justifying Lambo's pricing relative to Ferrari ("they sell <2000 units per year").

You say you love the LFA, but what is there to love? You don't think it has the looks or performance for the $400k class, you'd class it among SLS/458 at which point you can't get your head around the LFA's price (and lower performance to the 458). On top of that, no badge/prestige compared to these marques. Based on everything I've read, it's a loser in the hypercar class, and a loser at the entry level supercar class.

 

[lambornima]

Like mentioned above, LFA without any launch control burns the tires while SLS AMG launch control launches consistently. Read the notes from AutoZeitung and they had to run LFA several times before they got the best time while SLS AMG runs the same 10/10 times. That white prototype is the oldest one (same one in this HGTE video).

Going by what you're saying with LC the LFA would be able to match the SLS. again, as I pointed out before, you speculate way too much about how LC will affect the car, and what the results will be. Im sure there will be more tests of the LFA and more importantly, Im sure we will get owners testing their cars (I hope they are enthusiastic enough about their car to drive it and want to share their experience with others)

 

[NarutoRamen]

So suddenly we're not entitled to opinions, so we have to try and convince other people that they are wrong or tell them to GTFO?...We are not allowed to hate a car here?

If I remember correctly, there are other threads in other companies' sections where if people were hating for no other reason than "the brand" then they were told to not post.

It's fine to have an opinion, it's completely different to berate something over and over again because it just happens to belong to a certain company.

 

[lambornima]

"What you had been told by others." Don't you think your view of a car and what it's worth is shaped by others? If they were wrong then, what makes your view now any different? Like I said, you are sociologically conditioned to view cars a certain way based on how you've been discussing them. Others are not so concerned about performance or performance/$ or badge heritage. That much was clear when I conveyed to you that there are indeed people (not dealers) buying the LFA. Of course, when you're frequenting forums populated largelyby "enthusiasts," your view of the market is skewed. You could spend 20 years on your forums and never find an LFA buyer. Find yourself a forum frequented by CEOs and the truly, insanely wealthy and you'll see they view things differently; the assumption being, of course, that such people even post on forums to any significant degree.


Of course not. The 599 has probably sold in the thousands by now. GTO? Sold out in one week, and if you wanted one at MSRP, you better hope you've already bought a Ferrari before.
You seemed to be saying before that the LFA's volume doesn't justify the price: You are cynical about Lexus's decision to produce that few at that volume. Had it occurred to you that Lexus would like residuals to stay strong? You can find used SLR, CGT, Murcielagos at massively discounted prices all day long on ebay. And you still haven't found out if Lexus even want a long-term production capacity for LFA-type automobiles.
Of course I had to go find those quotes; did you think you were going to bring them up? You were given the chance...
The fact is, you only resort to volume when it fits your argument: in justifying the Reventon's price, and in justifying Lambo's pricing relative to Ferrari ("they sell <2000 units per year").

You say you love the LFA, but what is there to love? You don't think it has the looks or performance for the $400k class, you'd class it among SLS/458 at which point you can't get your head around the LFA's price (and lower performance to the 458). On top of that, no badge/prestige compared to these marques. Based on everything I've read, it's a loser in the hypercar class, and a loser at the entry level supercar class.

Maybe Im not making my point clear (seemingly im not), that I understand how volume is the main determinant of unit price. It is for the LFA, Reventon and bang/buck cars like the Z06.

Yet when I look at the article posted in the other thread, with the LFA longside the SLS, 458, LP570 etc, the car fits right in. Next to cars like the LP670 or Carrera GT, it just wouldnt fit in.

Why do I love the LFA? because the car is very well made and a great first attempt by Toyota. It sounds amazing and looks pretty good too. I love all cars and even if I prefer a LP570 to a 458 doesnt mean I dont like the 458. I love the Reventon but its got no place next to a Veyron for comparison. As such I love the LFA, but its got no place next to top of the line Ferraris and Lambos.