Mirai [Concept] Toyota Mirai (2019)


The Toyota Mirai is a mid-size hydrogen fuel cell vehicle (FCV) manufactured by Toyota, and is the first FCV to be mass-produced and sold commercially.
There’s nothing idiotic about anything that I have said, hydrogen is coming, it’s becoming cheaper to extract. By 2030 the expectation is it will be cheaper to extract then fossil fuels, call me an idiot as much as you like it doesn’t stop you from being ignorant of the future.

Again, didn't say you are an idiot for for believing hydrogen economy is coming (I am all for it, if it is viable). But you have to be a raging moron for specifically saying this -

hydrogen can also be used for powering existing fossil fuelled stations which could also power hydrogen extraction stations.

That makes no sense. Hydrogen has a specific energy of 40kwh/kg. It takes 50+ kwh energy to extract 1kg of Hydrogen. So why would you use energy from hydrogen you already have to make less hydrogen than you already have? That is so stupid. Even you can't be that stupid.

Just do the half smart thing - stop digging further, just say you misspoke, wasn't thinking clearly, made a mistake and just move on.
 
In which country do you believe hydrogen will acheive the greatest penetration?

Right now it's Japan, Korea and China getting into hydrogen in a big way. For countries which rely on imported fossil fuels its a given, they can produce hydrogen domestically and cut the umbilical cords to the oil producers.

According to Alsthom (train manufacturer) a 10MW wind turbine is capable of comfortably producing 2.5 tonnes of hydrogen per day; enough to power a fleet of 14 iLint trains over a distance of 600 km per day.

Toyota and Kenworth have a fleet of trucks running out of Long Beach Port. Australian mines are looking at hydrogen to power there haul trucks, the idea is to set up hydrogen compressors on site powered by solar farms, that means they don't nee to truck in hundred of tons of diesel each week to power there 300 ton haulers, it's can all be done on site, and since the haul trucks are a major carbon emitter at mines they reduce carbon emissions, it's win win.
 
Again, didn't say you are an idiot for for believing hydrogen economy is coming (I am all for it, if it is viable). But you have to be a raging moron for specifically saying this -



That makes no sense. Hydrogen has a specific energy of 40kwh/kg. It takes 50+ kwh energy to extract 1kg of Hydrogen. So why would you use energy from hydrogen you already hav...
Allow me to disagree with you. Sorry, that this will be a long post written with my far from perfect English but IMHO you are not the right side here.
The issue is that will all types of electricity generation based on steam powering the turbines you can not wind down the production following the demand. For a nuclear reactor every decrease in power is shortening its life and that's why they are always when possible operated at their projected maximum power. With power plants working with coal, fuel, gas, wood, stroll etc you need at least 12 hours in order to decrease the power and as a result of all the described above in the hours between 21 o' clock and 7 o'clock in average only 35-40% of the steam is used for generating electricity due to the lack of load. These wastes are huge and every single use of this otherwise wasted energy is a gain. For the purpose mankind needs energy storrages regardless if they have 10 or 90% effectivety. Producing hydrogen during this frame of hours is like charging a battery-you save the energy that is otherwise wasted (similar to the pumping-accumulating hydro power plants). There is an enormous amount of unused energy that can be used and the EVs(charged only in this time frame) and the production of hydrogen are a great way to solve this issue.
 
I am laughing at your specific claim - that you can use energy from hydrogen to generate more hydrogen. Even if you hit 100 % theoretical efficiency in generating hydrogen, you would just break even - consume 1kg of Hydrogen to get another 1kg. Why would anyone do that? It makes no sense whatsoever. It is first law of thermodynamics. It just shows how f$%...

What do you think most refineries use to power themselves?
 
It's nice to see alternative fuels (ie hydrogen) getting a grip at going mass market, let alone in such an attractively designed package (which is not my cup of tea).

That said, I wouldn't invest in such a car, before it has enough time to mature and prove its financial viability and long term dependability.
 
Allow me to disagree with you. Sorry, that this will be a long post written with my far from perfect English but IMHO you are not the right side here.
The issue is that will all types of electricity generation based on steam powering the turbines you can not wind down the production following the demand. For a nuclear reactor every decrease i...

Great points, but you are "disagreeing" with points I did not even make. Read my post again please. I have no fundamental issue with using hydrogen to store generated electrical energy.

The point I am making is it makes no sense to use hydrogen you already have extracted to extract more hydrogen because it will yield less hyrdrogen than you already have. It is like trading someone 5 apples you already have asking for 4 back. You already have 5, just eat that. Hope that clears it?

I am not making this shit up, it is written in plain english in Wikpedia about hydrogen production -

Considering the industrial production of hydrogen, and using current best processes for water electrolysis (PEM or alkaline electrolysis) which have an effective electrical efficiency of 70-82%, producing 1 kg of hydrogen (which has a specific energy of 143 MJ/kg or about 40 kWh/kg) requires 50–55 kWh of electricity.

So if you have 5kg of hydrogen already and use it to extract more hydrogen (as genius Kiwirob suggested), you will get ~4kg back. Why would anyone with half a brain do that?

And here is the math - to electrolyse H20, you need 286 KJ/mole of H2O (energy of the H-O-H bonds + entropy). One mole of H2O will yield 2 grams of H2. So to get 1Kg of H2 = 286*500 = 143000 KJ = 39.7222222 kwh. Which is exactly same as max specific energy of H2.
 
What do you think most refineries use to power themselves?

I don't know how much fossil fuel it takes to refine fossil fuel, but let me ask you this hypothetical to illustrate your stupidity - if it took 5 gallons of refined gasoline to get 4 gallons of refined gasoline you already have 5 gallons, would you just use the 5 gallons you already have or us it to refine and get 4 gallons instead?
 
Great points, but read my post again please. I have no fundamental issue with using hydrogen to store generated electrical energy.

The point I am making is it makes no sense to use hydrogen you already have extracted to extract more hydrogen because it will yield less hyrdrogen than you already have. It is like trading someone 5 apples you a...
My point is that during the night the hydrogen can be produced using the otherwise wasted energy and during the day the same hydrogen to be used for producing electricity when the peak consumption occurs. In that case there is no 30% efficiency lost but only a gain. It's not like going with 100 USD to a currency excange office to buy with them EURO in order to buy with it USD again (you can not get 100 USD again due to the commissions) but it's more like buying EURO and use it in a place where no dollars can be used.
 
My point is that during the night the hydrogen can be produced using the otherwise wasted energy and during the day the same hydrogen to be used for producing electricity when the peak consumption occurs

Yes, by all means do. The wasted energy at night you speak of is not stored hydrogen, but energy from some other means (nuclear, wind...). Once energy from other means is converted to hydrogen, it can be stored for whenever you need it. It makes no sense to use the energy from the stored hydrogen to extract more hydrogen.
 
What do you think most refineries use to power themselves?


Thanks for asking that. I looked a little more into it to see how much energy it takes to refine fossil fuel. No single figure, but they are between the 4.5kwh/gallon on the low side and 12 kwh/gallon on high side and 6kwh being most popular.

Rest is offtopic and nothing to do with hydrogen but shows how ridiculously bad ICE vehicles are compared to EVs - in addition to the 1 gallon of fossil fuel it also consumes on average 6kwh of electrical energy, good enough for an EV to go 20-24 miles - about same as the average new ICE passenger vehicle sold in US (24.9 mpg). In other words, in addition to the 1 gallon of fossil fuel, an ICE vehicle also consumes about same electricity as an EV.

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I won't get into the H.F.C vs electricity discussion, because I believe in two technologies: internal combustion engine and hybridization.

I think the new Mirai looks stunning. Possibly the prettiest Toyota since the 2000 GT and the fourth gen Supra. In fact, compared to the old Mirai, the new is an elegant butterfly while the old one was an ugly caterpillar.

However, I just can't help thinking how Toyota is totally screwing Lexus by not making this car the new Lexus GS. It's very unfair that the GS gets replaced by the FWD Lexus ES and not this car.

You get the impression that Toyota is becoming the biggest rival for Lexus. I can't see a happy ending for this family war. In fact, the GS was killed off because Akio Toyoda never liked it, despite the fact that Lexus U.S dealers begging him for a new generation GS.
 
Rumors suggest that the new Mirai will give way to a Lexus version to take place of the GS in their line-up around 2022 or 2023.
 

Toyota

Toyota Motor Corporation is a Japanese multinational automotive manufacturer headquartered in Toyota City, Aichi, Japan. It was founded by Kiichiro Toyoda and incorporated on August 28, 1937. As of 2022, the Toyota Motor Corporation produces vehicles under four brands: Daihatsu, Hino, Lexus and the namesake Toyota.
Official website: Toyota

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