tristatez28lt1
Tire Trailblazer
How many orders do they actually have? Or is it a Rimac Nevera/Evija/Battista type failure?
Czinger Czinger 21C - production spec
- Thread starter StartYourEngines
- Start date
Czinger Vehicles Inc., commonly known as Czinger is an American automobile manufacturer of hybrid sports cars based in Los Angeles, California, operating since 2019.
Revvd
Meister Mechaniker
I finally found out who makes the engine for Czinger. It's a company from New Zealand (but not Hartley) called Prototipo. The engine is based on their 3.0 L model Synergy 3000.
I'm sure there's many differences between them, but look at the head of the right bank and the oil filter, it's the same exact thing.
I'm sure there's many differences between them, but look at the head of the right bank and the oil filter, it's the same exact thing.
| Synergy 3000 | Czinger 21C | |
|---|---|---|
| type | 80° V8 | 80° V8 |
| aspiration | NA | twin turbo |
| displacement | 2,951 ccm | 2,882 ccm |
| bore x stroke | 85 x 65 mm | 84 x 65 mm |
| power | 449 PS @ 10,000 rpm | 963 PS @ 10,500 rpm (methanol) |
| torque | 360 Nm @ 8,000 rpm | 746 Nm |
| rev limit | 11,000 rpm | 11,000 rpm |
| weight | 105 kg | ? |
| compression ratio | 13.2 | ? |
Bridster
Oversteer Expert
That's interesting. Not Hartley, but still the same sort of race engine that brings up the same questions about engine life and emission homologation.I finally found out who makes the engine for Czinger. It's a company from New Zealand (but not Hartley) called Prototipo. The engine is based on their 3.0 L model Synergy 3000.
I'm sure there's many differences between them, but look at the head of the right bank and the oil filter, it's the same exact thing.
Synergy 3000 Czinger 21C type 80° V8 80° V8 aspiration NA twin turbo displacement 2,951 ccm 2,882 ccm bore x stroke 85 x 65 mm 84 x 65 mm power 449 PS @ 10,000 rpm 963 PS @ 10,500 rpm (methanol) torque 360 Nm @ 8,000 rpm 746 Nm rev limit 11,000 rpm 11,000 rpm weight 105 kg ? compression ratio 13.2 ?
Coincidentally, Robin Shute, a hill climb racer and several times Pikes Peak winner, revealed in a video today that he's gonna be using a Prototipo engine for his next Pikes Peak car that he is developing. In the video he actually mentions that a "hypercar manufacturer is having an engine developed by them" as well.
Revvd
Meister Mechaniker
I know. Where do you think I got this info from?
When he mentioned the hypercar, I immediately knew it's gotta be Czinger.
Thing is, I did remember this from the BRZ project, but I genuinely thought they were made by JUN in Japan.
I love this Pikes Peak project. He overachieved so much with the Wolf chassis. So stoked to see what he can do with a true world class PP special.
Tourbillon
Cornering Kingpin
I know. Where do you think I got this info from?
When he mentioned the hypercar, I immediately knew it's gotta be Czinger.
Thing is, I did remember this from the BRZ project, but I genuinely thought they were made by JUN in Japan.
I love this Pikes Peak project. He overachieved so much with the Wolf chassis. So stoked to see what he can do with a true world class PP special.
Powertrain focus: Czinger 21C - the 3D printed hypercar | Professional Motorsport World
A decade ago, the idea of 3D printing a car would have seemed like an outlandish idea. In 2023, it is very much a reality thanks to the efforts of Czinger, the California-based manufacturer of the 21C
www.pmw-magazine.com
I haven't read it yet but you can if you like.
Bridster
Oversteer Expert
Just giving you the benefit of doubt that you discovered it by your own efforts!I know. Where do you think I got this info from?
When he mentioned the hypercar, I immediately knew it's gotta be Czinger.
Thing is, I did remember this from the BRZ project, but I genuinely thought they were made by JUN in Japan.
I love this Pikes Peak project. He overachieved so much with the Wolf chassis. So stoked to see what he can do with a true world class PP special.
Yeah, I am also quite excited about his new car. It's probably gonna take a lot longer than he thinks... and it's gonna be more expensive than he thinks... but I hope they will reach the finish line regardless. The videos about the project are really nice too.
KiwiRob
Autotechnik Ace
Synergy started out making engines based off Honda and Suzuki bike engines, heads from the bike engine mated to a common crank to make a v8, the same formula was used by multiple engine builders since the Blackbird and Hayabusa.. They built a Toyota GT86 with a 2.0 V8 a while back, started selling conversion kits, they were very expensive. The engine was smaller and lighter than the Subaru flat 4.
Revvd
Meister Mechaniker
I have. Wish we could have more articles of the same quality as this one. It's a different universe to the usual rephrasing of press releases and uncritical shilling that everyone is used to these days.
Tourbillon
Cornering Kingpin
Aside but I guess unrelated who is the hybrid Bugatti's gearbox OEM? Any ideas?
Edit: it's unofficially been stated it's Ricardo. No major surprises there. But link the engine up to Cosworth ofcourse and that's a hell of alot of English Engineering in there.
Revvd
Meister Mechaniker
Sorry, can't help you there. I have zero insider knowledge about any car.Aside but I guess unrelated who is the hybrid Bugatti's gearbox OEM? Any ideas?
Edit: it's unofficially been stated it's Ricardo. No major surprises there. But link the engine up to Cosworth ofcourse and that's a hell of alot of English Engineering in there.
Anglos have gained crazy momentum in supercar world. Who would have thought they'd be shitting on German industry? And after Brexit, no less.
Revvd
Meister Mechaniker
Couple of points of interest in this recent interview with Lukas Czinger:
"The brake node is going to be an option on 21C.
When this comes into the market we fully expect it'll be by far the highest performance breaking system out there."
"We broke those records without the car being quote-unqoute sorted. There's a lot left on power delivery, on traction, on how we distribute that power, on some fine-tuning of our aero setup and our suspension setup.
So we fully expect to improve dramatically on those track times."
"We've raised 800 million (of capital) to date."
"We are working on variants of 21C that will be quite dramatically different, we're working on our next hypercar already, and we're going to come into that supercar (note: bellow hypercar) class as well."
"We've gone through full crash and full emissions work on the car. And what that means is you need a lot of prototype cars to get through the testing. So we've got a fleet of prototypes, that I'm lucky enough to get behind the wheel of, when I've got time to. And there's no better sports car experience in my opinion... hyper experience, than 21C."
(Then he goes on talking about crash testing. I won't go into that, other than the fact that they only used 2 chassis for various crash testing and kept rebuilding them as they went along.)
"We are powertrain-agnostic. We picked what we felt was the highest performing powertrain layout - which is a strong hybrid. You've got the electric motors in the front, you've got the middle electric motor - which is your MGU, and you've got a V8.
And therefore you've got the torque of EV, you've got the power delivery and fill of EV, and you've got the V8, which is putting down close to 1,000 horsepower reliably, day in and day out, for endurance track events."
"In terms of strong hybrid, we've got two EV battery packs in there... I think we're right around 4.5 kWh total. Three electric motors and that V8. Dry weight of the car: 1,450 kg... right around there. That's lighter than any strong hybrid, I know of, in the industry."
- Any interest in Nürburgring times?
"Absolutely. A huge amount of interest. We've started simulating our car on the ring. We started talking about dates to get out there. It is kind of a grand finale moment as well. And there's some amazing international tracks that we've also got our eyes on. So right now, our team is looking at what is the sequence of international tracks, when can we get to the ring, and ultimately our objective - which is run the record time there."
- How much time have you spent on the LA roads in a 21C?
"...It's surprising in that this car is really a friendly car on the road as well.... This car is exceptionally well damped. So you're very linear, you're very stiff, you're not getting a lot of motion. But if you hit a bump you're very well damped..."
"In the EV mode you can run this as a very low sound car. Right in the opposite end of the spectrum where you've turned it up to 10 you've got a car that's setting track records, that's unleashed on the road. And that is a level of performance that I haven't experienced in any other car. I'm not sure it exists in any other car.
We put a lot of our time into vehicle dynamics as well. In terms of what I care about: less so power, that's just me personally. More so vehicle feel, steering and pedal feel... What does the full package feels like? Is it responding in an intuitive way? Are there any delays in the car? Is it very much so connected to your input? Hydraulic steering on the car, pedals feel very linear.
You got a power band where you're doing a lot of EV fill, so even once your turbos kick in, you feel it, but it's not like you're slow up to it. You've got a lot of power from the get-go."
- I'm looking at, correct me if I'm wrong, some almost final production delivery vehicles. How close are you guys to doing some of these deliveries?
"Like right now. Literally right now.
So we'll deliver... I want to say... four cars in the next four weeks. And each one of those deliveries is planned out to be a pretty special event. You're talking about first US cars on the road. The dealers are coming to those, customers are coming to those. Each one is a celebration.
I think we've got six cars actually on the (production) line right now. Which is great to see. And this Factory is capable of a car a week. So as we ramp up... we actually will be able to get healthy volume out the door.
- How many of your buyers are from United States?
"I want to say 65-70%. We've made a concerted effort to get as many cars into the US as we can. Most of our dealer network is US-based. We're covered all across the country, coast to coast and in the middle.
We also saw very healthy early demand, which was interesting, from Germany and the UK. So those two locations are probably two and three in terms of where cars are going.
And now you're stretching outside of that. We've got a great dealer in Japan. He's telling us people are like frothing at the mouth for the 21C. They love the tech story. They've obviously got maybe one of the deepest and most impressive car cultures and scenes in Japan. So one of the places I'm eager to go to with the car is Japan.
We've got the Middle East represented as well, of course. There's demand there and we'll spring up over time and get cars into that region."
- The car sold out very quickly after reveal, yeah?
"Yeah. So the Blackbird Edition, which was one of four, we sold the same day we revealed it.
21c, we've been selling for... I want to say close to a year now. And we're nearly 100% sold out of the full run. So that feels good for us, right? That means we've had demand we're looking for.
As a new brand you need to prove a lot more than as a brand that has a lot of legacy. So under no expectation that we think we'd announce 21C on sale and sell 80 cars. We had to work for it. We had to show people what we do, how our business is, the stability we have. Even educate them on the aerospace side of the house and what Divergent does, then get them in the car to experience the car.
And my view of success, and what I was really tracking during that process, was: Once people have driven the car, are they buying the car? And that's a yes. So once people drive the car , they're getting out of the car and they're saying: Yes, we're in. And that shows that we have the product that matters."
(Of course, it wouldn't be a Czinger interview without a wildly ridiculous downforce claim. This one wasn't an exception
"We're doing 5,000+ lb of downforce on that rear wing at 190 mph." (2,268 kg at 306 kph = 1,514 kg at 250 kph)
Jonathan19
Premium+
The first 21C VMax delivery has officially taken place an exposed blue carbon fiber over grey leather and alcantara interior.
Jonathan19
Premium+
Jonathan19
Premium+
I'm not sure what to think about this car anymore. The announced weight is now 1600kg!? I don't know how they calculate their downforce levels, but I don't see how road tires could handle such a load, especially with a weight of 1600kg. The project is fascinating and the construction technique is brilliant, but this 21C seems strange on several points.
Revvd
Meister Mechaniker
Gentlemen, a short view back to the past...
This concept started out 10 years ago, as a 635 kg, carbon tube framed, 700 hp 4G63T powered Divergent Blade.
In 2020, the concept changed to a 1,090 hp PHEV with twin turbo V8, two front motors and 2x 1 kWh battery packs. All this with a claimed dry weight of 1,090 kg.
Same year, shortly after, the specs saw an increase in power and dry weight to 1,250 hp & 1,250 kg, and Czinger announced a widebody track focused version with combined output of 1,350 hp. The battery pack was now 2x 2.2 kWh.
Knowing what we know now, I'd say there was never any logic to these early stats. Up to this point, Czinger just kept increasing the weight in order to keep the 1:1 power-to-weight ratio, as they kept finding more power. All the while everyone suspected these were just marketing tricks, yet secretly keeping hope that 3D printing tech would allow for this proclaimed revolution in weight saving.
In 2021, Motor Trend reported a curb weight of 1,320 kg.
Last year, Jethro reported a dry weight of 1,450 kg.
Now we learn that it's actually "1,620 kg wet" (is this a true US curb weight or is that number going to go up still?), and the ICE power went down to 750 hp for regular 21C and 850 hp for 21C Blackbird.
It was supposed to be 950! What happened? Did EPA forbid Czinger from using methanol?
After $1B of combined investments in Czinger and Divergent, and now that it's time for reviews, all the reported specs suddenly change to something less impressive. Funny how that works, huh?
I wish Jethro asked them about how is it possible that they managed to keep total combined output the same 1,250 hp with 200 less ICE hp. Do they compensate with electric boost? In which case, could increasing the electric power from 300 to 500 hp have a negative impact on the battery and state of charge in track mode?
I would imagine question like this would be relevant for the purpose of a car review. Unless what we're doing is effectively a PR campaign on behalf of the manufacturer.
Of course, even with these latest updates, 21C still compares somewhat favorably against similar supercars like F80 or AMG One. That's on paper only - by the sound of it, the systems calibration and tuning still need more work. And I'm not even going to touch the downforce bullshit numbers anymore, that would be like beating a dead horse.
While the car seemed slow during the passenger ride with Czinger's factory driver, I don't doubt securing the production lap record at Sonoma posed any challenge for the team, with the now second fastest car being a "lowly" 765LT.
Was the drip feeding of increasingly more realistic updates over long period of time really necessary? Couldn't they have gotten to this point by telling the truth? It somehow worked out, given how Divergent managed to attract clients like Bugatti and McLaren, as well as to find home for most of the 21C's production run.
Although, what kind of a customer finds this conman style presentation and marketing appealing, I'll never know. Perhaps they can relate to the "fake it till you make it" lifestyle.
This concept started out 10 years ago, as a 635 kg, carbon tube framed, 700 hp 4G63T powered Divergent Blade.
In 2020, the concept changed to a 1,090 hp PHEV with twin turbo V8, two front motors and 2x 1 kWh battery packs. All this with a claimed dry weight of 1,090 kg.
Same year, shortly after, the specs saw an increase in power and dry weight to 1,250 hp & 1,250 kg, and Czinger announced a widebody track focused version with combined output of 1,350 hp. The battery pack was now 2x 2.2 kWh.
Knowing what we know now, I'd say there was never any logic to these early stats. Up to this point, Czinger just kept increasing the weight in order to keep the 1:1 power-to-weight ratio, as they kept finding more power. All the while everyone suspected these were just marketing tricks, yet secretly keeping hope that 3D printing tech would allow for this proclaimed revolution in weight saving.
In 2021, Motor Trend reported a curb weight of 1,320 kg.
Last year, Jethro reported a dry weight of 1,450 kg.
Now we learn that it's actually "1,620 kg wet" (is this a true US curb weight or is that number going to go up still?), and the ICE power went down to 750 hp for regular 21C and 850 hp for 21C Blackbird.
It was supposed to be 950! What happened? Did EPA forbid Czinger from using methanol?
After $1B of combined investments in Czinger and Divergent, and now that it's time for reviews, all the reported specs suddenly change to something less impressive. Funny how that works, huh?
I wish Jethro asked them about how is it possible that they managed to keep total combined output the same 1,250 hp with 200 less ICE hp. Do they compensate with electric boost? In which case, could increasing the electric power from 300 to 500 hp have a negative impact on the battery and state of charge in track mode?
I would imagine question like this would be relevant for the purpose of a car review. Unless what we're doing is effectively a PR campaign on behalf of the manufacturer.
Of course, even with these latest updates, 21C still compares somewhat favorably against similar supercars like F80 or AMG One. That's on paper only - by the sound of it, the systems calibration and tuning still need more work. And I'm not even going to touch the downforce bullshit numbers anymore, that would be like beating a dead horse.
While the car seemed slow during the passenger ride with Czinger's factory driver, I don't doubt securing the production lap record at Sonoma posed any challenge for the team, with the now second fastest car being a "lowly" 765LT.
Was the drip feeding of increasingly more realistic updates over long period of time really necessary? Couldn't they have gotten to this point by telling the truth? It somehow worked out, given how Divergent managed to attract clients like Bugatti and McLaren, as well as to find home for most of the 21C's production run.
Although, what kind of a customer finds this conman style presentation and marketing appealing, I'll never know. Perhaps they can relate to the "fake it till you make it" lifestyle.
Jonathan19
Premium+
KiwiRob
Autotechnik Ace
Someone who owns a Vector, Hennessey or SSC. There a long tradition of US supercar builders who blow smoke, look in mirrors and con there clients and the public.
Revvd
Meister Mechaniker
From Autocar:
Also, we finally have a top speed for 21C. It's 205 mph / 330 kph (the previous claim I believe was 350 kph). It's from the printed version of Top Gear's review.
Assuming the 1,620 kg includes full tank and that Czinger respects the commonly found 700 kg of safety margin within the tire load limit, this should put their downforce at about 600 kg at 250 kph.
Also, we finally have a top speed for 21C. It's 205 mph / 330 kph (the previous claim I believe was 350 kph). It's from the printed version of Top Gear's review.
Assuming the 1,620 kg includes full tank and that Czinger respects the commonly found 700 kg of safety margin within the tire load limit, this should put their downforce at about 600 kg at 250 kph.
