Edmunds - IL Track Tested: 2009 BMW 750Li vs. 2009 Mercedes-Benz S550

[Zafiro]

Still i expected much more from that new TT V8,no wonder MB didn't update the V8s just yet.

I'm very curious what differences you were expected? I mean a C63 isn't much faster than a M3 despite being more powerful.

 

[Merc1]

Well it can't be both ways. One minute everyone is on Mercedes about updating the V8 , but in reality it does just fine. Yet the next someone will tout how the BMW V8 is so superior....the question is which is it? Is the Mercedes V8 so old and uncompetitive or not?


M

 

[Tarek]

..the question is which is it? Is the Mercedes V8 so old and uncompetitive or not?


M

well it's simple,MB's V8 is like 4 year old now against a brand new V8 and still doin very well according to the numerous reviews we've seen already,so i think it's wise decision not updating the V8s now and leave all the goodies for the all new S due in three years time.

 

[Mr Robert]

The MB V8 is clearly behind in performance in this duel but is it far enough behind to justify a brand new one? I don't think so, it is not that much behind in what makes a Mercedes.

 

[Merc1]

What I've got to find out is how is that BMW, Audi/VW (nearly everything they sell here), Cadillac, and now Porsche manage to sell direct-injection engines here while Mercedes and Nissan/Infiniti say our gasoline it too dirty. I don't see anything about those who do sell DI engines here having their dealers service shops full of cars with clogged fuel injectors???

DI would take the 382hp, 5.5L V8 over 400 very easily though it still wouldn't match the BMW V8 on torque.

M

 

[Mr Robert]

Isn't that the case with the 3.0 from BMW as well? You poor sods state side gets the really old version with 231 (imperial) hp version while we get the 272 hp in the 528/530?

 

[Merc1]

No BMW does the DI turbo 3.0L with 300hp in everything, 335i, 535i etc. The previous 760Li had DI years ago and was one of the first to employ it here.

M

 

[Tarek]

What I've got to find out is how is that BMW, Audi/VW (nearly everything they sell here), Cadillac, and now Porsche manage to sell direct-injection engines here while Mercedes and Nissan/Infiniti say our gasoline it too dirty. I don't see anything about those who do sell DI engines here having their dealers service shops full of cars with clogged fuel injectors???

DI would take the 382hp, 5.5L V8 over 400 very easily though it still wouldn't match the BMW V8 on torque.

M

Well doesn;t the US get the CGI V6 ones? that one is DI.

 

[Mr Robert]

No BMW does the DI turbo 3.0L with 300hp in everything, 335i, 535i etc. The previous 760Li had DI years ago and was one of the first to employ it here.

M

We get that too, the 3.0TT with 306 hp (not in 5-series) but the N/A 3.0 in Europe gets 272 hp. In the US they only have 231.

 

[Merc1]

Yeah our base 3.0L does without DI correct.

M

 

[Zafiro]

well it's simple,MB's V8 is like 4 year old now against a brand new V8 and still doin very well according to the numerous reviews we've seen already,so i think it's wise decision not updating the V8s now and leave all the goodies for the all new S due in three years time.

well it's simple,MB's V8 is like 4 year old now against a brand new V8 and still doin very well according to the numerous reviews we've seen already,so i think it's wise decision not updating the V8s now and leave all the goodies for the all new S due in three years time.

I'm still curious what differences you were expecting.
Did you expect the V8 twinturbo to be faster in acceleration, for lets say 2 seconds difference up to 100km/h?

Last V8 with 367hp for 750i was competive as well.
This is a comparison from Autozeitung:
BMW 750i, 367hp:
0-100km/h: 5.9 sec, 0-160km/h: 13.2 sec, 0-200km/h: 21,3 sec
-----
S500, 388hp:
0-100km/h: 6.0 sec, 0-160km/h: 13.8 sec, 0-200km/h: 21,3 sec

Here is another comparison from TeknikensVarld:
BMW 750i, 367hp:
0-100km/h: 6.7 sec, 0-160km/h: 14.1 sec
-----
S500, 388hp:
0-100km/h: 6.4 sec, 0-160km/h: 13.8 sec

As you can see the differences aren't much here either but still BMW decided to update the engine. Why ?
Because the new V8 Twinturbo is a better engine, more clean and up-to-date with all the future EU standards. Better fuel consumption despite being more powerful. It's better engine for everyday driving than a N/A engine is.
I think S500 engine will be updated within 3 years to meet up with new rules and laws. Mercedes can't avoid too long.

 

[Mr Robert]

Yeah our base 3.0L does without DI correct.

M

Strange. But on the other hand, we have the 272 hp so we, in a sense, does not need the 3.0TT awhile you guys have the 3.0TT and subsequently does not ned the 272 hp 3.0 N/A engine. You should, however, have had the 265 hp 3.0 N/A engine, that is a big enough step below the 3.0TT. We, on the other hand, get the 540i with a V8 and 306 hp (-who buys that?).

 

[Merc1]

As you can see the differences aren't much here either but still BMW decided to update the engine. Why ?
Because the new V8 Twinturbo is a better engine, more clean and up-to-date with all the future EU standards. Better fuel consumption despite being more powerful. It's better engine for everyday driving than a N/A engine is.
I think S500 engine will be updated within 3 years to meet up with new rules and laws. Mercedes can't avoid too long.

Better engine because it passes regulations that aren't even place yet? Who says a turbo engine is better for everyday driving? The BMW engine is better at fuel consumption yes....when you drive it like Mrs Daisy, but when you push it (it is a BMW afterall) it drinks. What laws and regulations does the MB V8 not meet?


Sounds like a pretty weak case for a "superior" engine IMO. A little bit better maybe, but hardly something other-worldly as some try to make it sound.


M

 

[Mr Robert]

No, I have a really hard time understanding how a FI engine could be better for everyday consumption... and, frankly, I have not yet seen an FI engine performning better an an equivalent NA engine in everyday driving.

For all out performance, fine, it is a hit... but the consumption will almost always suffer from FI. Therefore, they better change that cycle used for the EU standard measurement to better show how people really use their vehicles.

 

[Zafiro]

Better engine because it passes regulations that aren't even place yet? Who says a turbo engine is better for everyday driving? The BMW engine is better at fuel consumption yes....when you drive it like Mrs Daisy, but when you push it (it is a BMW afterall) it drinks. What laws and regulations does the MB V8 not meet?


Sounds like a pretty weak case for a "superior" engine IMO. A little bit better maybe, but hardly something other-worldly as some try to make it sound.


M

Hi Tarek, thanks for replying

Who says turbo engines are better than N/A engines? thats what I've been hearing since I become a member, this always been the subject in the hands of Turbo defenders. Somehow I can agree on it since the torque is much higher and the power range is wider.
Personally I prefer N/A engines when you have to get up high in the rpm to get the car moving.

My previous post wasn't about the S-class engine being good or bad, just a reply why BMW updated their engine.
I don't know the laws and regulations but I know there are and the carmakers are paying attention to it. But I know its a difference between Europe and USA. Here laws and regulations are different, probably tougher laws as well. But lets not get into politics since everyone already know US doesn't always agree with Europe in environmental issues

 

[Tarek]

Hi Tarek, thanks for replying

You are welcome..

I simply didn't reply coz Marcus summed it quite well,my saying wouldn't add mush to his.

 

[Merc1]

Hi Tarek, thanks for replying

Who says turbo engines are better than N/A engines? thats what I've been hearing since I become a member, this always been the subject in the hands of Turbo defenders. Somehow I can agree on it since the torque is much higher and the power range is wider.
Personally I prefer N/A engines when you have to get up high in the rpm to get the car moving.

My previous post wasn't about the S-class engine being good or bad, just a reply why BMW updated their engine.
I don't know the laws and regulations but I know there are and the carmakers are paying attention to it. But I know its a difference between Europe and USA. Here laws and regulations are different, probably tougher laws as well. But lets not get into politics since everyone already know US doesn't always agree with Europe in environmental issues

Well I think it would be better to go by your own experiences then because this really doesn't answer the question or support the case you were trying to make for the BMW V8. I'd say that the BMW V8's superiority comes in the form of more power and torque, not really fuel consumption unless you're not going to push it. Cleaner emissions too I'm sure. There is also a ever so slight performance edge.

I personally don't think a turbocharged engine is the idea engine for a luxury sedan. Sports cars yes, but luxury sedans now. There is a lag issue which will never be fully elimnated. BMW and others have gotten it down to something very miniscule, but its still there compared to a naturally aspirated engine.

I drove a turbocharged car for 9 years it was fun, but in this class I'd pass unless it was a V12. The V12s from both Mercedes and BMW are large enough in capacity to not be found wanting for torque/response before the turbos kick in.

Other than whatever law/regs that MB V8 may or may not meet, I think the case of saying the MB V8 needs to upgraded is on paper only. 400hp just looks and sounds better than 382hp.


M

 

[Zafiro]

You are welcome..

I simply didn't reply coz Marcus summed it quite well,my saying wouldn't add mush to his.

I can't see where Marcus answered my questions to you , regarding difference in acceleration You say you expected more and I'm just curious about the difference you mention.
Oh well , you refuse to answer so I wont stalking you anymore about this thing

 

[Merc1]

On acceleration, IMO unless we're talking about a clear 1/2 second advantage then it will be a wash in most cases. Once you get past the 1/2 second mark you can see the superior/faster machine pulling ahead. Edmunds times are always on the slow side though. Everyone else in the known world gets better times for the S550.

M

 

[Sunny]

No, I have a really hard time understanding how a FI engine could be better for everyday consumption... and, frankly, I have not yet seen an FI engine performning better an an equivalent NA engine in everyday driving.

For all out performance, fine, it is a hit... but the consumption will almost always suffer from FI. Therefore, they better change that cycle used for the EU standard measurement to better show how people really use their vehicles.

Cause everyday driving you are not really pushing it (unless you have a lead foot). A very simplified way to look at it is, off boost, a turbo engine is like a smaller NA engine. And on boost, like a bigger N/A engine.

Turbos (unlike superchargers) don't by itself consume extra fuel, since it is runs off exhaust gases. The extra fuel consumption when it is on boost comes from the extra fuel needed to burn the additional amount of charge the turbos are sucking in and when it is off bost it doesn't need that.