Hot! Mercedes-Benz, What's Next?

[Matski]

I do wonder how successful an S class that is styled after the G wagon would be.

Given the reaction when somebody says anything bad about the S- or G- ... wildly.

 

[klier]

The Mercedes engine portfolio is newer than BMW engines. It didn't make sense to me.

It would if you would read the articles.

The major takeaways are:

1:

The agreement between the rival companies is being framed as a “strategic step to cut development costs”.

For Mercedes, it would secure a Euro 7-compliant engine supply – crucial to the continuation of ICE models – while helping it to expand plug-in hybrid offerings without further heavy investment in four-cylinder engine development.

2:

M252 is well suited to mild-hybrid applications, it isn't currently engineered for PHEV or range-extender use – a gap that a BMW-supplied engine could potentially
fill.

Said engine is rumoured to be a turbocharged 2.0-litre derivative of the four-cylinder B48 engine, which is used in almost every current BMW and Mini model line.

Likely to be produced at a factory in Steyr, Austria, the B48 is claimed to offer greater scope than the M252, as it's packaged for both longitudinal and transverse layouts, giving Mercedes more flexibility across its both its compact and mid-sized models.

Developing a brand new engine not suited for PHEV is typically.....Mercedes.

If the economics don't work it doesn't matter how new MB's engines are.

It's not about the economies per say........These idiots developed an engine not suited for PHEV or EREV setup.
So yeah in that sense it does become about economics in the end because you can't keep developing new engines all the time. You don't have infinite money and infinite engineers.

 

[Merc1]

Yeah another inexplicable mistake.

M

 

[AbsoluteUnit]

The M252 is designed for maximum compactness. I'm sure it could be adapted to suit other needs, however that would take time, during which they'd need a motor to fill the gap.

 

[klier]

The M252 is designed for maximum compactness. I'm sure it could be adapted to suit other needs, however that would take time, during which they'd need a motor to fill the gap.

You might want to send in your ideas about why you're so sure quickly, before Mercedes signs a billion Dollar deal with BMW. They clearly haven't properly thought things through.

The M252 is everything but future proof, apparently. What a joke of a company. I truly feel bad, as a die hard BMW fan. This simply isn't fun anymore. Mistake after mistake after mistake. Mistakes you don't have to go to school for to understand they're f#cking MISTAKES. A literal child would understand these mistakes if given some proper context.

 

[AbsoluteUnit]

You might want to send in your ideas about why you're so sure quickly, before Mercedes signs a billion Dollar deal with BMW. They clearly haven't properly thought things through.

The M252 is everything but future proof, apparently. What a joke of a company.

I mean I don't know the engineering reasons why the M252 can ONLY be a mild-hybrid and not a PHEV. I'd need to hear an explanation about that at the very least, because I don't understand how that works. They probably can't do a P2 hybrid set-up with the motor in the gearbox as its one package I think, but they can definitely have a separate motor in the rear in MMA cars. Would be a mission to calibrate, but worth it.

I think the bigger issue is that its currently transverse only. Only MMA cars are intended to be FWD. The C, GLC and up are all RWD.

The interesting thing is, they don't need a 6 cylinder as part of this deal, it suggests they have a Euro7 compliant 6 cylinder engine somewhere?

I truly feel bad, as a die hard BMW fan. This simply isn't fun anymore. Mistake after mistake after mistake. Mistakes you don't have to go to school for to understand they're f#cking MISTAKES. A literal child would understand these mistakes if given some proper context.

Ola is an idiot, I can't deny that.
To not have any Euro7 compliant 4 pot in development for Longitudinal applications or indeed for PHEV applications is baffling. Especially when they seem to have 6 and 8s in the pipeline.

 

[Rolf]

I really dont understand how the new M252 cant be installed longitudinally and connected to the 9 speed auto for RWD applications. The current 4 cylinder M254 PHEV set up has the electric motor installed as a sandwich in the 9 speed auto and the flywheel of the engine in RWD models. Mercedes will just have to change the bolt connections on the bell housing to match the engine.

 

[Swissbob]

The current M254 is a rough lump, it does the job, but that’s all.

Big Turbolag and not rev happy.

The Diesel OM654 is much better.

 

[AbsoluteUnit]

I really dont understand how the new M252 cant be installed longitudinally and connected to the 9 speed auto for RWD applications. The current 4 cylinder M254 PHEV set up has the electric motor installed as a sandwich in the 9 speed auto and the flywheel of the engine in RWD models. Mercedes will just have to change the bolt connections on the bell housing to match the engine.

That is my question as well.

news: Mercedes-Benz details new engine developed with Geely

dieselnet.com

According to this article, Geely are planning on using the same engine in a high-voltage PHEV too, so it apparently is possible to put it in a PHEV - at least in the MMA cars.

The issue is most likely longitudinal applications.

 

[Rolf]

The EQE and EQS are been sold in Oz with massive discounts to try and tempt buyers. Will this work to get more sales?

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[Swissbob]

I mean I don't know the engineering reasons why the M252 can ONLY be a mild-hybrid and not a PHEV. I'd need to hear an explanation about that at the very least, because I don't understand how that works. They probably can't do a P2 hybrid set-up with the motor in the gearbox as its one package I think, but they can definitely have a separate motor in the rear in MMA cars. Would be a mission to calibrate, but worth it.

I think the bigger issue is that its currently transverse only. Only MMA cars are intended to be FWD. The C, GLC and up are all RWD.

The interesting thing is, they don't need a 6 cylinder as part of this deal, it suggests they have a Euro7 compliant 6 cylinder engine somewhere?


Ola is an idiot, I can't deny that.
To not have any Euro7 compliant 4 pot in development for Longitudinal applications or indeed for PHEV applications is baffling. Especially when they seem to have 6 and 8s in the pipeline.

I agree

He was 100% convinced of EVs.

 

[Matski]

To not have any Euro7 compliant 4 pot in development for Longitudinal applications or indeed for PHEV applications is baffling. Especially when they seem to have 6 and 8s in the pipeline.

6's and 8's will always be lower volume. They absolutely hammer the EU targets, but they're just not the bulk of the fleet. If I'm playing devil's advocate, when Mercedes placed combustion engines on the chopping block in order to focus on EVs it was objectively - at the time - the right thing to do. Our BEV Technology thread poll indicates that a third of GCF users thought EVs would be reaching 50% of US, EU and CDM sales within four years from now. If you're Mercedes, and that's what you think your customer base wants, what do you do to maximise profits?

 

[Swissbob]

The wind has changed, 6 years ago I was 100% in the EV camp.

Since then I became very skeptical.

 

[AbsoluteUnit]

6's and 8's will always be lower volume. They absolutely hammer the EU targets, but they're just not the bulk of the fleet. If I'm playing devil's advocate, when Mercedes placed combustion engines on the chopping block in order to focus on EVs it was objectively - at the time - the right thing to do. Our BEV Technology thread poll indicates that a third of GCF users thought EVs would be reaching 50% of US, EU and CDM sales within four years from now. If you're Mercedes, and that's what you think your customer base wants, what do you do to maximise profits?

Perhaps then they can update their nearly new M254 and OM654 motors to be Euro7 compliant, rather than develop brand new motors. I do understand what you mean though. I suppose their initial intention was to have the BEVs replace the 4 cylinder models at the low end, and sit parallel to the I6 and V8s remaining on the higher trim levels.

Though given that they went through the trouble to make a hyper-efficient 1.5L M252, they should have made sure it was flexible enough to have a variety of applications.

Or I guess, given that its part of a modular family of engines, make a 1.8L 5 cylinder version or a 2.25L 6 cylinder LOL. Otherwise, why call it a family?

 

[Matski]

The wind has changed, 6 years ago I was 100% in the EV camp.

Since then I became very skeptical.

Again, I'm being Devil's Advocate... but it doesn't matter. Manufacturers had to react to what they thought legislation would be. Sure, they could also bet against those regulatory limits coming in to force, but that's a massive gamble. A Democrat administration in the US, the EU's forthcoming plans, and the mandatory push to EV in China would make not focusing efforts on EV powertrains a significant risk. If you know something is going to be outlawed, why would you invest in it?

The current US administration back-pedalling on consumption/emissions targets may well make the US a fertile market for more cost effective, higher profit margin purely ICE vehicles. If the EU were to abandon it's targets, the same would happen here - but that's probably a fever dream. We'll get an extra 10 years of Hybrids, and as the POV spec models from any given manufacturer become more prolific, the 6's and 8'd will follow for the lucky few...

 

[Swissbob]

The EU is very corrupt, and everybody knows this.

I still think that the car companies are behind the EV mandate, because they think, they might make more money with it.

Especially VW forced it, to clean their image of the Diesel Scam.

 

[AbsoluteUnit]

Again, I'm being Devil's Advocate... but it doesn't matter. Manufacturers had to react to what they thought legislation would be. Sure, they could also bet against those regulatory limits coming in to force, but that's a massive gamble. A Democrat administration in the US, the EU's forthcoming plans, and the mandatory push to EV in China would make not focusing efforts on EV powertrains a significant risk. If you know something is going to be outlawed, why would you invest in it?

The current US administration back-pedalling on consumption/emissions targets may well make the US a fertile market for more cost effective, higher profit margin purely ICE vehicles. If the EU were to abandon it's targets, the same would happen here - but that's probably a fever dream. We'll get an extra 10 years of Hybrids, and as the POV spec models from any given manufacturer become more prolific, the 6's and 8'd will follow for the lucky few...

That being the case, the B48 loan deal might very well be a stop-gap solution until the landscape has settled. And honestly, why not. This partnership makes more sense than partnering with say... Renault.

 

[Design FIRST]

The wind has changed, 6 years ago I was 100% in the EV camp.

Since then I became very skeptical.

I continue to remain there, although the generally anticipated modi operandi of the Eurocrats in Brussels and selected state EU bureaucracies appear to have done their very best in order to stifle a sustainable transition. Certainly they are not solely to blame. The nature of the electric mobility beast is characterized by a neck-snapping pace of innovation, which in turn ushers rapid obsolescence. And manufacturers here in Europe have yet to introduce more attractive ownership/leasing/rental models for private customers. Promised purchase price reductions due to enhanced "BEV characteristic economy of scales" hasn't happened. Quite the contrary actually. That pisses potential customers off. Personally, I remain confident that BEVs will become increasingly popular...sometime considerably further down the road than expected though. The plateau of innovation and progress in the field has yet to be reached. And interim solutions such as more progressive hybrid/REEV powertrains will continue to play a crucial role.

 

[leylandi]

Perhaps then they can update their nearly new M254 and OM654 motors to be Euro7 compliant, rather than develop brand new motors. I do understand what you mean though. I suppose their initial intention was to have the BEVs replace the 4 cylinder models at the low end, and sit parallel to the I6 and V8s remaining on the higher trim levels.

Though given that they went through the trouble to make a hyper-efficient 1.5L M252, they should have made sure it was flexible enough to have a variety of applications.

Or I guess, given that its part of a modular family of engines, make a 1.8L 5 cylinder version or a 2.25L 6 cylinder LOL. Otherwise, why call it a family?

m254 and om654 euro7 compatible engines.

 

[klier]

m254 and om654 euro7 compatible engines.

Yeah and that's it.

They might as well throw them away.