Vs Motor Trend: BMW 535i vs Infinit M37S vs Lexus GS 350 F Sport vs Audi A6


You have to love Guibo attempts to defend a japanese cars on a german carforum ;)

I have respect for Lexus and I like IS and I adore the LFA and I have owned more japanese cars than german cars and I can say the reliability is just untouchable. But the GS do not look good in my eyes and I can't find any reasons why I would pick a GS and not a F10.
Also, I don't like being accused for having excuses everytime I pick a german car and not a japanese car. GS is simply not the car for me and F10 can do everything just as good as this GS can do + F10 looks a lot better.

Nobody needs to prove his choice. :t-cheers: But some (not you) just need to stop imposing their opinions on others.
 
^On the road either the S5 or S4 would tackle corners with the same composure as my M3 did, I didn't for one minute feel any more confident to push the M3 faster. Now on the track this might well have been different with the M3 coping better as the speeds started to climb but since I never drove either of the Audis on a track to find out if this opinion would be true but I reckon it would.
You ask me for data to prove my opinion Audi corner as well but I say why when MT have proven it for you, the Audi grips longer and harder with more lateral Gs.
Just because you didn't feel confident to push the M3 faster doesn't mean it definitely would not go faster; it could just mean you're a pussy. In any case "composure" is not the same as speed and you are now admitting you have no recollection or observation of the objective parameter by which you are "measuring" and making the statement.
"S5 tackles corners with the same composure as the M3"...curious how so few road tests have ever echoed that sentiment. Generally, it's been the complete opposite.

Again, you still cannot understand the difference between instrupmented testing and what goes on during a mountain run. Just because a car pulls more lateral Gs on a perfectly flat and smooth skidpad doesn't mean it's faster on a track or (more relevantly to this discussion) on a winding mountain road, nor does it mean it feels more balanced and is more composed. Cases in point: Look at how well ZR1s and Vipers have fared in objective measurements, but are relatively poorly rated for balance and composure. A GT-R or LFA pulls less lateral g but in some corners can actually exceed the speed of the others.
And you need to understand that there are differences of opinion between you and me about what constitutes "cornering well." That the A6 was fast is a given. Motor Trend flat out said it so why you had to have a beef with them is beyond comprehension. But cornering well goes beyond mere numbers, just as the term "handling" goes beyond mere numbers. Which was the point of Motor Trend's admonishment, yet it flew right over your head!

It just happens to be the case that the M3 being tested head to head against the S5 by edmunds proved to be faster on the skidpad, recording 0.95g to the S5's 0.91g. So if you're going to look at objective performance numbers from which to derive the context that the faster car on the skidpad must also be faster in real-world corners, then where does it leave your claim that the S5 corners just as well. In the slalom portion (a measure of transient response which doesn't happen on a skidpad), the M3 slaughtered the S5 by nearly 5 mph.
 
I'm trying to grasp what you all are debating here?
Deckhook is under the impression that a car must automatically be faster or "just as well composed" as other cars on a winding mountain road simply because it performs better on a flat skidpad or figure-8 course. He's also claiming his S5 was just as fast as his M3 in corners, and only now has admitted he has no way of knowing; he never took any speed measurements.
 
Deckhook is under the impression that a car must automatically be faster or "just as well composed" as other cars on a winding mountain road simply because it performs better on a flat skidpad or figure-8 course. He's also claiming his S5 was just as fast as his M3 in corners, and only now has admitted he has no way of knowing; he never took any speed measurements.

You have to realize it is kind of difficult to take any measurements of fictitious cars.

Meanwhile here are 2 tests that actually tested the real cars - M3 and RS5 (not even S5) and in both cases the M3 proved faster around the slalom.

http://www.germancarforum.com/internal-combustion/33772-sport-auto-comparison-test-m3-vs-audi-rs5-review.html
M3:70.4kph
RS5: 67.4kph

http://www.germancarforum.com/internal-combustion/34173-ams-audi-rs5-vs-bmw-m3-dkg-alpina-b3-biturbo-mercedes-benz-c63-amg-ppp.html

M3: 69,9 km/h
RS5: 66,9 km/h
 
@Guibo I think we are getting well away from the subject matter when we start discussing M3 and S4/5 so lets stick with this test and my opinion the A6 will be quicker on any road you care to put it down compared to those others. I just wished we had data to prove the Lexus was slower but I'm willing to bet it will come soon enough, the only data I can provide is with the BMW at Autozeitung test track where the 535i could only muster 1:48.30 compared to the A6 time of 1:45.20, by anyone's reckoning that is a huge differences and shows that feeling nose heavy does nothing to its ability post the quickest time by a country mile.
 
@Guibo I think we are getting well away from the subject matter when we start discussing M3 and S4/5 so lets stick with this test and my opinion the A6 will be quicker on any road you care to put it down compared to those others. I just wished we had data to prove the Lexus was slower but I'm willing to bet it will come soon enough, the only data I can provide is with the BMW at Autozeitung test track where the 535i could only muster 1:48.30 compared to the A6 time of 1:45.20, by anyone's reckoning that is a huge differences and shows that feeling nose heavy does nothing to its ability post the quickest time by a country mile.
Well you were the one who brought up how your Audis were as fast* around corners as any BMW you've owned (and that would mean the M3 too). *Since downgraded to "as composed as" after admitting you had no idea how fast you were going. Fine, if you're unwilling to acknowledge the pure fantasy of your claims, let's move on.
I never said feeling nose heavy automatically means the car will be slower, did I? Motor Trend never made that assertion either. However, feeling nose heavy can make the car feel more ponderous going downhill on mountain passes and it's obviously not a trait favored by just about any mag editor outside of Audi Driver Magazine.
 
Because BMW is the Ultimate Driving Machine. Therefore, it automatically drives better then any Audi. :rolleyes:

I don't understand why they take these cars to the track. These are executive sedans that will spend 100% of their lifetime on the road. Who cares about handling? It really won't make a difference in the application the cars will be used in. It comes down to preference of stye and looks, because you really can't go wrong with any of the cars listed. BMW's got the badge and the comfort, Audi has Quattro, and now, Lexus has the looks. It all depends what you want from the car. The discussion about how fast a car will corner and what handles better is a moot point. Hell, even raising the point that the cars 'feel' heavy is moot. These cars won't go past 65 mph on the highway.
 
The handling/racetrack talk is just keyboard racer jabber and schlong extension seekage.

The percentage of people who buy these cars who will explore the lateral G cone twirling and "how many pebbles can I feel from the road" steering-feel tests are maybe 0.00000000001%.

I can not understand HOW the "best handling one" or "most responsive steering one" always wins these STUPID tests. And I'm not one of those here who are knocking the Lexus because I'm pissed/denial/jealous that it won (I don't like the car, but it clearly does certain sportive things better than the competitors). These "Journalists" are so selfish, they judge every test the same, as if every test is a Lambo VS a Porsche. In a Midsize Sedan test, cone dancing should factor in VERY LITTLE toward which is the "best". The one that is most comfortable, most quiet, most solid, most luxurious should ALWAYS COME IN FIRST IN THIS SEGMENT! These idiot Journalists just are too selfish and one-track minded to cater to what the demographics who buy these cars realistically seek. Instead they cater to the keyboard/ego-seeking faux "racers" who get off on slalom times from upright Executive Sedans.

////RANT.
 
@Guibo, you call me a pussy for not being willing to push the M3 harder the either the S4 or S5 on a road a drive daily three to four times every day of the year and know like the back of my hand. I think I prefer confidence rather than blind faith in a car's ability to make it so, take away the margin for error like on a track and I'm sure the M3 might corner harder but on the road it didnt provide anymore confidence to be pushed harder.
 
@Guibo, you call me a pussy for not being willing to push the M3 harder the either the S4 or S5 on a road a drive daily three to four times every day of the year and know like the back of my hand. I think I prefer confidence rather than blind faith in a car's ability to make it so, take away the margin for error like on a track and I'm sure the M3 might corner harder but on the road it didnt provide anymore confidence to be pushed harder.

I call you a pussy too, cause you don't have the balls to list the cars you claimed to have owned just in the last 3 years. You are always welcome to prove me wrong and list them here or even just state the list in your signature is the full list, but I bet, you don't have the balls to do it...


ps. And before people go, "ah, how does it matter what cars he own?" no it really doesn't, unless you are one of those few people who interjects the cars they own to support every argument (and this thread is a good example of that). Well, then you owe it to the forum to come clean on what cars you really own.
 
Let the record reflect that Guibo didn't call Deckhook a pussy outright. He merely suggested that he could be one based on his experience as recounted.
Also let the record reflect that Deckhood did call me stupid outright.


Deckhook, if you're going to take exception to perceived flaming, I suggest you not start deliberately flaming others first. Otherwise, expect to be treated in kind, especially when the fantastical claims you've interjected into this thread seem to be unsupported by known independent testing bodies, who in fact have shown the opposite: that the M3 is faster in handling than the RS5 (let alone this magical S5 that you claim to own).

Now, back to the subject of testing vs what happens on the road...
On a flat skidpad or figure-8 course with no other obstacles around, a nose-heavy AWD car can be thrown around with no risk to life and limb and if it starts to understeer wildly, one can back off the throttle for it to regain the line. Out on a public winding road with bumps, undulations, or downhill gradients that can exacerbate an already heavily front-biased weight distribution, you simply have less margin to regain the line due to the fact that there may be guardrails, cyclists, other motorists, trees, curbing, etc. It is not hard to imagine that certain combinations of surface and gradient might very well push the A6 into a sense of wooliness it would not otherwise exhibit in more controlled conditions, making it feel larger than it is. Here is where a car that gives you better feel, weighs over 200 lbs less with less of it on the nose, and is more receptive to throttle inputs can be just as fast if not faster. It can feel smaller than it is. You cannot know that it will be slower here, but that is not the point that MT were making (and indeed, they already played up the speed of the A6). They were talking not just about composure (not speed), but also about the higher levels of involvement.

Now, you might say that hammering these cars hard on twisty mountain roads is not entirely the point of owning such cars, and I could agree that is a point of contention against this test. But I think the point you raised about one car "showing a clean pair of heels" to another is even less relevant to the ownership experience as it's pretty bloody unlikely a GS F-Sport driver is just going to happen to come upon any of these other 3 cars at just the right point during his drive. Interesting how when it's a comparison involving a Jaguar, the speed is never an issue for you yet the ride and and feel of the car is paramount. Suddenly now in this test where the Audi is fastest and not as involving as others, you cry foul.
 
^ Called you stupid, you mean you didn't notice the smilie at the end of that post which clearly show it to be a joke. I don't bad mouth a fellow member when I can possibly help it so if you felt offended then I apologise. :t-cheers:

As for the rest of the post sorry but I will have to disagree, call it a difference of opinion. I didn't want to discuss the M3 v RS5 but you and others brought it up so here my two cents worth on the subject, so far they both have been tested on a total of sixteen tracks either together or separately of those the M3 has been quickest in six the RS5 a total of ten, what does this mean is open it debate but I will leave that discussion to others and not on here. As for posting slalom speeds yes to does show the advantage RWD and for that matter FWD have over AWD but last time I was driving I didn't nor ever will weave my way though either concrete posts or predestrians so I don't see the great importance placed on this test but each to their own.
 
^ Called you stupid, you mean you didn't notice the smilie at the end of that post which clearly show it to be a joke. I don't bad mouth a fellow member when I can possibly help it so if you felt offended then I apologise. :t-cheers:

As for the rest of the post sorry but I will have to disagree, call it a difference of opinion. I didn't want to discuss the M3 v RS5 but you and others brought it up so here my two cents worth on the subject, so far they both have been tested on a total of sixteen tracks either together or separately of those the M3 has been quickest in six the RS5 a total of ten, what does this mean is open it debate but I will leave that discussion to others and not on here. As for posting slalom speeds yes to does show the advantage RWD and for that matter FWD have over AWD but last time I was driving I didn't nor ever will weave my way though either concrete posts or predestrians so I don't see the great importance placed on this test but each to their own.

Ah, so putting a smiley after cussing someone makes it okay? I should remember that.

And as M3 vs RS5, sorry, out of the 6 times the cars been tested together around a track, the M3 is been faster at least 5 (Evo, Top Gear, Sport Auto, AMS, Auto Bild). I have no idea what the 6th one is. So sorry, it is far from anywhere being even.
 

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