Hot! Off Topic Debates from Coronavirus thread.. please continue here.

[Betty Swollocks]

When this passes? And it will pass.
Who will be the first to sanction China?
Surely some are considering repatriation for the damage the outbreak has caused?

You really are quite horrid. Your mask has slipped in the last few months, with your Pepe The Frog avatar, and your right-wing politics. Below is what happens when you start pointing the finger at a whole group of people.

Trump is calling it the "Chinese" virus, despite their being two other commonly used ways to describe it. He's doing it because it deflects attention away from his lack of action and him claiming it's nothing to worry about. He even changed his notes to call it the "Chinese" virus.

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The problem with that, other than the fact that it alienates over a billion people who had no hand in this, is that it weaponises racists and bigots around the World.


So you can shove your bigoted and small-minded views where the sun don't shine.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

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[montana]

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Blaming Trump for these attacks is just plain wrong. Where did he call for violence directed at people of Asian decent?

 

[Matski]

Where did he call for violence directed at people of Asian decent?

Sorry, but that's a very naive way of looking it. He's clearly not called for violence against Asians, but he has deliberately elected to use a term which will generate negative sentiment towards China. I suspect he's doing this for political and economic reasons, rather than inciting violence, but that's a clear side effect of his deliberate choice.

If Chinese Virus or Wuhan Virus sounds racist, so does Spanish flu.

Lots of viruses are named after where they originated... Zika (Uganda), Ebola (DRC) for example, and epidemics often append a country name to that. Using a place name as shorthand for a more complicated term isn't bigoted. But doing so to incite hatred of a nation (pretty much) is.

Coronavirus is actually the classification of a family of viruses. SARS is also a Coronavirus.

Which is why most people involved are intelligent enough to call it Covid-19, because, y'know, it's more accurate.

They don't even propose to change their food hygiene.

Is there evidence that the source of the virus would have been subject to food hygiene standards? I'm no expert, but while it's possible to pass legislation aimed at foodstuffs being prepared and sold, it's a bit harder to tell individuals what they can and can't eat (if they can get it)... I mean, is there a law here in the UK that prevents me from catching a wild rabbit, accidentally not cook it well enough, and contract salmonella, which I may then unknowingly pass on to lots of other people?

 

[J.E]

That's why they call it 'the new corona virus'

They call it Code 19 or Covid 19. But there's not denying, however, that the virus originated in China, so there's nothing racist with calling it the Chinese virus or Wuhan virus since that's where the outbreak started.

I suspect the people who think it's racist to call it the Wuhan virus are those who think hygiene is racist since they don't brush their teeth regularly. These stinky bastards are vulgarly known as "the British".

 

[CrunchSlaughtered]

Which is why most people involved are intelligent enough to call it Covid-19, because, y'know, it's more accurate.

Covid 19 IS NOT THE NAME OF THE VIRUS. This is the name of the desease COrona VIrus Desease emerged in 2019. The virus is SARS COV 2 (Sauth Asian Respiratory Syndrome Corona Virus 2).

 

[Matski]

Covid 19 IS NOT THE NAME OF THE VIRUS. This is the name of the desease COrona VIrus Desease emerged in 2019. The virus is SARS COV 2 (Sauth Asian Respiratory Sindrom Corona Virus 2).

I approve of the pedantry, but if you wanted to refer to the current outbreak, is Covid-19 not more accurate than Chinese/China Virus? Chinese virus simply indicate a virus that emerged in China, of which there are several, it doesn't indicate the strain, or the outbreak, it just indicates "The Chinese, they're bad, so bad".

 

[montana]

Sorry, but that's a very naive way of looking it. He's clearly not called for violence against...

Exactly, he's clearly not called for violence. That's my point. And he's not wrong to call it a Chinese virus, because afaik it is exactly that. I agree that COVID-19 or SARS-CoV-2 etc are better terms, but if someone wishes to use his words as a shield and commit racist crimes then that's on them. 100 %. And they should be punished!

Now, if you're not explicitly calling for violence, you're simply not. It's a very child-like behaviour to blame others for your or some one else's actions.

... Getting tired of everyone blaming Trump for everything. It's getting tiresome. Let's hold him accountable for his actual words/actions instead of implying what his motivations are on his behalf. Like we would any other person.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Blaming Trump for these attacks is just plain wrong. Where did he call for violence directed at people of Asian decent?

No, and he didn't call for violence against people of Mexican descent when he was relentlessly talking about "Mexican rapists invading the U.S". Rather unsurprisingly it was enough to galvenise some people to take matters into their own hand.

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If Chinese Virus or Wuhan Virus sounds racist, so does Spanish flu.

Coronavirus is actually the classification of a family of viruses. SARS is also a Coronavirus.

Oh the irony of bringing up Spanish Flu when discussing how wrong it is to victimise one nation over a pandemic.

Spanish Flu didn't actually originate in Spain. It sweeped across France, Germany, Austria, Britain and the U.S. during the First World War, but because of censorship this wasn't widely known at the time. Neutral Spain not being at war had no reason to suppress the news of the outbreak, so it was believed at the time it started there. It didn't.

Now if that is not a lesson, I don't know what is.

From the WHO website: "Coronaviruses (CoV) are a large family of viruses that cause illness ranging from the common cold to more severe diseases such as Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS-CoV) and Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS-CoV)".

The Middle East Respiratory Syndrome... I guess the WHO is quite racist as well. Anyway, they call it COVID-19, because it belongs to the CV family and it was discovered in 2019.

They call it Code 19 or Covid 19. But there's not denying, however, that the virus originated in China, so there's nothing racist with calling it the Chinese virus or Wuhan virus since that's where the outbreak started.

No there isn't anything racist in naming a virus after a geographical location. What IS racist, however, is deliberately using that name when most other people are calling it something else which doesn't result in innocent people being attacked on the street. You see it's THAT part that is racist. The mentality of DELIBERATELY calling it something else which they know speaks to their audience, a few months before an election campaign begins.

Let's hold him accountable for his actual words/actions

That's exactly what I am doing. Being in the position of President of the United States means there are far-reaching consequences to everything you say. Trump CHOOSING to call it the China Virus means innocent people have been and will continue to be attacked simply because of their race (yes, race because there are people being attacked who aren't even Chinese but "look like them"). This is literally racism.

People like you aboslutely disgust me.

 

[montana]

No, and he didn't call for violence against people of Mexican descent when he was relentlessly talking about "Mexican rapists invading the U.S". Rather unsurprisingly it was enough to galvenise some people to take matters into their own hand.

That's exactly what I am doing. Being in the position of President of the United States means there are far-reaching consequences to everything you say. Trump CHOOSING to call it the China Virus means innocent people have been and will continue to be attacked simply because of their race (yes, race because there are people being attacked who aren't even Chinese but "look like them"). This is literally racism.

People like you aboslutely disgust me.

Since you clearly know me so well, what part of my persona is disgusting to you? You're a great poster on this forum, I've enjoyed reading your posts for the longest time, so sad to hear you say this. Didn't expect this from you.
By the way, I never stated that I agree with the term "Chinese virus" as I think it's stupid, but it did break out in China didn't it?

And, for the sake of argument, let's follow your reasoning. E.g: Person X said something, now person Y commits a racist crime. This is somehow Person X's fault.

Now, I don't know if you remember the Police shootings in Dallas a couple of years ago, but you can look up the 2016 Dallas shootings. It's the deadliest in the US so far with regards to killing police officers. Here's a quote for you (wikipedia):

"On July 7, 2016, Micah Xavier Johnson ambushed and fired upon a group of police officers in Dallas, Texas, killing five officers and injuring nine others. Two civilians were also wounded. Johnson was an Army Reserve Afghan War veteran who was angry over police shootings of black men and stated that he wanted to kill white people, especially white police officers."

Hours before this Obama posted the following: Statement by the President

So tell me, do you hold Obama accountable for these shootings? Or was it the shooter alone who should be held accountable?

edit: link not working, if you google the following it should appear on top: THE PRESIDENT: Good evening, everybody. I know we've been on a long flight, but given the extraordinary interest in the shootings that took place in Louisiana and Minnesota, I thought it would be important for me to address all of you directly.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Since you clearly know me so well, what part of my persona is disgusting to you? You're a great poster on this forum, I've enjoyed reading your posts for the longest time, so sad to hear you say this. Didn't expect this from you.
By the way, I never stated that I agree with the term "Chinese virus" as I think it's stupid, but it did break out in China didn't it?

And, for the sake of argument, let's follow your reasoning. E.g: Person X said something, now person Y commits a racist crime. This is somehow Person X's fault.

Now, I don't know if you remember the Police shootings in Dallas a couple of years ago, but you can look up the 2016 Dallas shootings. It's the deadliest in the US so far with regards to killing police officers. Here's a quote for you (wikipedia):

"On July 7, 2016, Micah Xavier Johnson ambushed and fired upon a group of police officers in Dallas, Texas, killing five officers and injuring nine others. Two civilians were also wounded. Johnson was an Army Reserve Afghan War veteran who was angry over police shootings of black men and stated that he wanted to kill white people, especially white police officers."

Hours before this Obama posted the following: Statement by the President

So tell me, do you hold Obama accountable for these shootings? Or was it the shooter alone who should be held accountable?

edit: link not working, if you google the following it should appear on top: THE PRESIDENT: Good evening, everybody. I know we've been on a long flight, but given the extraordinary interest in the shootings that took place in Louisiana and Minnesota, I thought it would be important for me to address all of you directly.

Ah, that takes me back to a time when the highest office in America was held by someone with the gravitas and dignity that the post deserves.

Obama was completely correct about black people being victimised by the police. It's clearly a problem. You'd have to have your head buried in the sand to think it wasn't. It's an issue that needed to be addressed, and it was, and in the correct way.

Trump, on the otherhand, continuously making sweeping statments about an entire nation being "rapists" without any facts to base it on, is irresponsible.

Obama was speaking up for a minority who face GENUINE inequality. Trump was weaponising people who are ALREADY in a position of power against an imaginary enemy by using racist rhetoric and baseless conjecture.

There's your difference.

 

[montana]

Ah, that takes me back to a time when the highest office in America was held by someon...

You yourself wrote earlier "Being in the position of President of the United States means there are far-reaching consequences to everything you say". So I ask again, do you hold Obama accountable for the actions of the perpetrator?
I have no love for the man but it's clear as day that that wasn't his fault.

Obama was actually completely incorrect about black people being victimised by the police. I believe both cases were investigated (as well as so many more), and as it turns out the officers in question were acquitted of all charges. So does that mean that both the police and the USDOJ are racist? Institutional racism? What genuine inequality are you on about?

So no, it wasn't an issue to begin with and having a POTUS fuel the fire clearly made matters worse.

And where did Trump state, or in any way even insinuate, that the whole of Mexico consists of rapists?? My goodness....

You didn't answer my first question by the way - what about me is so damn disgusting? I would sincerely like to know.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

This is awkward.

Please explain what is awkward? Most, if not all of those clips were from January. The name "COVID-19" wasn't announced by the WHO until 11th February.

Obama was actually completely incorrect about black people being victimised by the police. I believe both cases were investigated (as well as so many more), and as it turns out the officers in question were acquitted of all charges. So does that mean that both the police and the USDOJ are racist? Institutional racism? What genuine inequality are you on about?

And this is where it's pointless even discussing anything with you. You're genuinely saying that there is not a problem in the U.S. of black people being targeted by institutional racism in the police?!! Seriously?!!!

And where did Trump state, or in any way even insinuate, that the whole of Mexico consists of rapists?? My goodness....

Oh, I do apologise. He said SOME "may" be good people.

He has also said that in 2017, "EVERY one of the 15,000 Haitians who received a U.S. visa had AIDS".

Trump is a racist. Period.

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@montana @Betty Swollocks
Be mindful of the topic...

I don't know why I even engage with these people.

Right, my apologies. Easy to get carried away. Is there any way we could move this to another thread?

No need. It's pointless even discussing it with you.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

On Trump suddenly calling it the "Chinese Virus", this explains it perfectly...

In the beginning he wasn't treating it seriously and didn't consider it a threat. He said it wouldn't affect the U.S. When he realised he was wrong, he started calling it the "Chinese virus" to deflect blame away from himself for not dealing with it correctly.

How anybody could defend this clown is beyond me.


And once again, for those idiots saying "iT's calLed ChinEse vIRus beCause it COMes frOm cHina", or "bUt sPaniSh fLu and gERman mEasles!!??", read this...

copy and paste if you can be bothered...
Trump’s new fixation on using a racist name for the coronavirus is dangerous

Anybody who doesn't see the implications of Trump deliberately calling it the "Chinese virus" is, at best, thick.

 

[montana]

Please explain what is awkward? Most, if not all of those clips were from January. The name "COVID-19" wasn't announced by the WHO until 11th February.


And this is where it's pointless even discussing anything with you. You're genuinely saying that there is not a problem in the U.S. of black people being targeted by institutional racism in the police?!! Seriously?!!!

Oh, I do apologise. He said SOME "may" be good people.

He has also said that in 2017, "EVERY one of the 15,000 Haitians who received a U.S. visa had AIDS".

Trump is a racist. Period.

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I don't know why I even engage with these people.

No need. It's pointless even discussing it with you.

Okay.

1. You claim institutional racism. So, the police and the department of justice in the US are racist organizations according to you. Do you have any evidence what so ever to back up your claim other than yelling about it? Sources? I just told you, the officers were acquitted of all charges after taking all evidence into account, what does that tell you? including the FBI by the way. Guess they're racist also. Do you even hear yourself?

You know, other than just than throwing out insults and baseless conjecture you may want to provide sources. If you claim racism that's fine but the burden of proof is on YOU. Provide evidence to refute my claims and then I would back down. But you can't. So you attack my persona instead. Mature.

2. Illegal immigration from Mexico is a big problem, namely drug- and/or human trafficking. Trump is clearly not the most eloquent speaker out there, true, but still he's not wrong. LEGAL immigration is a totally different story however.

3. The AIDS quote comes from the ex-White house chief of staff. We never heard this from Trump directly. if I were to tell your friends that you made a similar remark, does that make it true? It doesn't.

I would just like to add that you're the one using phrases like "these people", "disgusting" and so on. Real mature of you, kudos. Clearly I'm the bigot here.

edit: you still didn't answer my questions: Do you hold him accountable for the shootings, yes or no? And why did you call me disgusting? Third time's the charm I guess.

 

[advantage20]

To end the racism off-topic, for those claiming that "white supremacy", "institutional racism" and "unconscious bias" are still ruling in today's USA just because the liberal media are claiming so, here is a fact and logic-based conservatives vs. Black Lives Matters debate

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[Betty Swollocks]

To end the racism off-topic, for those claiming that "white supremacy", "institutional racism" and "unconscious bias" are still ruling in today's USA just because the liberal media are claiming so, here is a fact and logic-based conservatives vs. Black Lives Matters debate

When I saw that chart, the first thing I thought was "Jesus, a black person is 5x more likely to be murdered in America than a white person". If that isn't the first thing YOU see when you look at that chart then you should ask yourself some pretty strong questions.

The fact that it's black on black killings is irrelevent. American society is inherently structured that black people have less opportunities, less chance to go to the best schools, less chance to get the best jobs, less chance to get out of poor and crime-ridden areas, and by logic MORE chance that they're going to suffer the consequences of living in an environment where they're 5x more likely to be murdered than a white person.



And you're seriously quoting Ben Shapiro?! Here are some of his other views:

On abortion:
"Abortion should be banned, even in the case of rape and incest".
"Women who have abortions are baby killers".

After the Las Vegas massacre:
"Banning guns would be immoral".

On Israel and Palestine:
"Israelis like to build things. Arabs like to bomb things and live in open sewers".

On LGBT rights:
"Homosexuality is a sin".

On Muslims:
"Half the Muslim population on Earth is radicalised".
"An American soldier is worth far more than an Afghan civilian".



This is depressing.

 

[advantage20]

When I saw that chart, the first thing I thought was "Jesus, a black person is 5x more...

1. Your argument is pretty circular: black communities are in a difficult situation... because they are in a difficult situation. Personal responsibility goes down the flush, everything just has to be the racist whites' fault because it just has to. What about having babies out of wedlock? What about 70% single motherhood rate in the black communities? What about the high rate of black kids dropping out of highschool? What about 13% of the population being responsible for 50% of the nation's crimes and constituting a high percentage of inmates - not for randomly walking down the street and being pulled into a prison cell but for having committed a crime? What about buying the latest and greatest clothing and gadgets while simultaneously complaining about poverty and demanding family allowances and food stamps? You are deliberately ignoring some widespread issues which are in no way the system's / the whites' / the racists' fault and which must be dealt with by the black communities themselves in the first place before any external intervention can have a significant effect.

2. Trying to discredit one's arguments on a given topic by bringing up irrelevant, unrelated and out of context quotes doesn't answer to those particuar arguments and tends to show that your case against them isn't strong enough that you need to reach beyond that discussion and go after the person itself to try and smear its credibility. A cheap and see-through rhetorical trick which doesn't advance the debate. Well according to this logic, if Hitler says the Sun is yellow, then you must disagree because you need to disagree with everything Hitler says, right?
To put some quotes back into context:
- Homosexuality is indeed a sin to Jewish people, Ben is Jewish and he has a First Amendment right to express that opinion. It is a purely personal moral opinion, he doesn't lobby for it being outlawed.
- He likewise has the right to express the opinion that banning guns would be immoral. Why? How about because bad guys would still be able to get guns on the black market while good guys wouldn't be able to defend themselves anymore? You are brushing off this complex issue as if you had taken the time to extensvely prove that your stance is the quintessential truth.
- I personally disagree with banning abortion across the board, but rape and incest are usually the 1% cases brought up by abortion advocates to hide the fact that they totally approve of the remaining 99% as well. Including third trimester abortions at will (without any medical condition), which is what prominent Democratic leaders such as Beto O'Rourke are actually promoting. It would be very disturbing that you didn't find that extremely wrong. And yes, in all cases, abortion is killing a to-be baby which has its own genetic code, its own beating heart, its own sensitivity to pain after only a few weeks of gestation, by actually ripping its limbs out piece by piece.
- Ben repeatedly denounced his own radical comments about Palestinians that he wrote back when he was 19. Recent polls however do show that a large amount of regular non-terrorist Muslims in the Middle-East as well as in Western countries do approve of suicide bombings and jihad in general:

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[donkeykong]

1. Your argument is pretty circular: black communities are in a difficult situation... bec...

Are you American?

 

[Betty Swollocks]

1. Your argument is pretty circular: black communities are in a difficult situation... because they are in a difficult situation. Personal responsibility goes down the flush, everything just has to be the racist whites' fault because it just has to. What about having babies out of wedlock, what about 70% single motherhood rate in the black communities, what about the high rate of black kids dropping out of highschool, what about 13% of the population being responsible for 50% of the nation's crimes and constituting a high percentage of inmates - not for randomly walking down the street and being pulled into a prison cell but for having committed crimes? What about buying the latest and greatest clothing and gadgets while simultaneously complaining about poverty and demanding food stamps? You are deliberately ignoring some widespread issues which are in no way the system's / the whites' / the racists' fault and which must be dealt with by the black communities themselves in the first place before any external intervention can have a significant effect.

You see this is a "black" problem.

I see it is a "poverty" problem, where the major sufferers of that are black people because of the inherent inequality in America which is biased against people of colour.

If the figures show that black people are more likely to be criminals or have babies out of wedlock (black men being poor fathers is a common racist trope, by the way), then do you SERIOUSLY believe that is because they're black? Or is it because it's the structure of the environment they're brought up in? Think hard.

What about 13% of the population being responsible for 50% of the nation's crimes and constituting a high percentage of inmates

If you stop and search 4x more people of one ethnicity than the other, then even if both ethnic groups commit the same amount of crime, it will result in 4x more arrests/convictions for the group who are being stopped more.


Do you HONESTLY think, all things being equal, someone is more likely to commit a criminal act because they have black skin rather than white? Because that's what you're saying.

I like Ben Shapiro.

I'm 100% certain you do.