Choices, Choices and more Choices.....

[Merc1]

K/A does have a point though, the car has swollen vs the old car, and its very expensive this time around. Looks big just parked, its really BMW's CL IMO. However it is a good looking car to me. For some reason the Coupe looks much more svelt at least in pics (coupe). I just can't wait to see the M5, 650i Coupe m/pack all on the same floor.

M

 

[klier]

Yeah, it's a baby CL. But I don't see the problem there, there's very few of those kind of cars. Even copy-all VAG doesn't have an answer to a big luxury continent cruiser GT. They have the Conti GT, but that's a different league (not for the highest end CL 65 AMG though)

However...as as sick as the 650i M pack coupe will be, the M5 is an M and just better.

 

[Merc1]

However...as as sick as the 650i M pack coupe will be, the M5 is an M and just better.

I think I'm inclined to agree with this, especially since they'll likely cost the same money here in the U.S. when you add options to the 650i.


M

 

[K-A]

Nah, it just doesn't have the presence of a $100+K car to me, there's no conspiracy here.

It is very nice indeed, but it just doesn't look extremely special to me yet. The Coupes with M-Pack, however, in pics, do, so hopefully IRL they will to me. The interior also didn't make me feel like I was sitting in anything supremely "supreme" or anything. Not that it's bad in any way, but just didn't give me that feeling of it being worth $50K more than a 5-Series at all.

The heft can be a good thing to its presence, but it still has that BMW athletic nature to it, while being incredibly heavy and huge, almost like it's an athlete on off season after eating way too many burgers. IMO Benzes always pull of "large Luxo barge" better, because that's their direction, and BMW strays away from that.

I have a feeling that the Coupe will look more harmonious. If the 6-Series sold for U.S $70-80K, like the CLS, then I think it would be much more unfair to criticize it, but for the price they're asking, I think it opens the car up to more nitpicking.

 

[Merc1]

Presence yes, but it still doesn't say 100K Klier, no matter how many time you repeat it or post pics of special versions of the 6. This is from someone that really likes the car.


M

 

[SKY]

After having seen several 6er Cabrios an tons of 5er, and even when the coupe is my fav car style and I find the 6er to be an exquisit car, the 5er is just perfect. I can´t say anything wrong about it. Maybe the front end is a bit bland, as with most of the BMWs, but the M5 would be my choice.

 

[klier]

^ a problem is way too big of a word, but I am not the biggest fan of 5er's rear. 7er imo is much better.

Merc, to me it screams 100k. And besides, 100k is really not much for a 650i coupe, so this whole discussion is just weird.

 

[Merc1]

Merc, to me it screams 100k. And besides, 100k is really not much for a 650i coupe, so this whole discussion is just weird.

Of course it does, I would expect no less. A $100,000 USD is a ton of money for what is supposed to be a mid-level BMW coupe. It starts at like 82K and with the really good options tops out around 100K, that is clearly a lot of money, again in the U.S. Sorry if you can't grasp that due to differing currency elsewhere.


M

 

[Beemer B773ER]

Presence yes, but it still doesn't say 100K Klier, no matter how many time you repeat it or post pics of special versions of the 6. This is from someone that really likes the car.


M

Well if communicating to the world that you're driving a $100K is important to you, then I think you got two options:

1. Scratch the 6er off your list and go for something more exotic. That'll scream '$100K right here' even if the product itself is inferior to the 6er.

2. Get the 6er, and either put a decal on the rear stating "$100K" ...or get a personalized license plate that shows the exact dollar amount you paid for a fantastic built, riding, driving and looking car that for whatever reason doesn't feel like $100K.


So what about the M5 communicates $100K right here ? The loud M body-work? that 2"x1" M5 badge on the back?.. the colored brake calipers?

I'll be honest since I got the opportunity to see the new M5 and 6er Coupe(w/ M package) and 6er Convertible. I've been an M5 fan since the first time I caught glimpse of the E39 M5 in LeMans Blue. When I saw all the photos of the new M5... I liked it..but I didn't love it. Maybe that was because we're now treated to so many spy shots and teasers that we're desensitized to any 'wow' factor. Seeing the car in person.. it just didn't move me like I thought it would. It's name and reputation alone make you understand this is a very special car, but similar to the E39 M5, it's mostly still a wolf-in-sheep's-clothing, so it doesn't communicate that $100K price-tag visually.
The 6er on the other hand. All the official photos we saw online....everyone on this forum was thoroughly impressed and loving the new 6er. I on the other hand had that same iffy so-so feeling of the photos. The car's stance seemed a tick off, something about the front-end just didn't look right..and my goodness did it grow in size. So I dropped by the local BMW dealer and got a good look at the 6er Convertible. Instantly impressed! The front looked great...assertive without being over-the-top aggressive. Athletically elegant design all around. A few weeks later I got to see the Coupe with the M-Package, along with another Convertible (without M-Package). was instantly floored by the 6er Coupe with M-Pack! Just stunned! M5 looked good.... 6er Coupe with M-Pack...effing stunning! The proportions are BMW at its very best. The large rims really shrink the car's dimensions down well. I usually don't even like plain old 5-spoke rims (I absolutely despise the ones on the M5..pathetic effort on M's part there IMO compared to the wheels of the E39 and E60 M5's)...but for the 6er Coupe, the M-Pack rims are simply perfect! The full LED headlights not only fill the headlight cluster much better, but they give the car that added sci-fi/tech image that Audi are utilizing with their LED headlights. The body kit works a treat all around the car...and the only thing which would make the M6 look visually better than the M-Pack would be the signature four shiny exhaust pipes.

If you're wanting a pure driver's car, then yeah, maybe go for the M5 because of the M treatment and M-enhanced motor. Also, if you have a pressing need to have 4 adult seats or need to stuff 3 kids in the back, then yeah get the M5. But for that visual wow factor and head-turning appeal (which I assume is strongly correlated to that need for the $100K right here look)... you can't go wrong with the 6er Coupe with M-Package.

I'm not sure whether you saw some of the photos I took from the event I attended whether I got to see these great cars.

 

[Merc1]

You missed the point by a country mile, it doesn't look like a 100K car to me. I couldn't care less what someone else thinks its worth. I don't feel that the car is worth paying a 100K for, simple as that. That could change once I see the coupe in person.


M

 

[Sunny]

Am I the only one who thinks the front end looks better with out the M sport thingy?


As for the whole 100k look thing, you guys should realize that you all are marred by the fact that you already know it is a mid level car. Get a Martian, park a 6er and a SL next to each other and make him pick which looks more expensive and I doubt it is as simple a choice.

 

[klier]

Sorry if you can't grasp that due to differing currency elsewhere.

M

Hey, no need to apologize. We're here trying to help you with your choices, and you come back with comments like this, and Beemer ''missing the point by a country mile'.
You say you wanted a BMW, I am a BMW fan trying to give you objective views between models. People like K-A simply hate the fact you're looking at a BMW, and they want to play with your mind by saying all these pathetic, snobbish 100k comments.

 

[Merc1]

Hey, no need to apologize. We're here trying to help you with your choices, and you come back with comments like this, and Beemer ''missing the point by a country mile'.
You say you wanted a BMW, I am a BMW fan trying to give you objective views between models. People like K-A simply hate the fact you're looking at a BMW, and they want to play with your mind by saying all these pathetic, snobbish 100k comments.

Thanks, again I'll just say again you missed the point. Really lost here klier. Did you not see the sarcastic nonsense in the post I replied to? Apparently not. How does one go from saying the 650i is overpriced IMO, to me wanting to project to the world that I have a 100K car as being my top concern? That is missing the point by a mile plain and simple.

The 6-Series to me just doesnt seem to be worth paying a 100K for. Is that easier to understand? I don't care about how it appears to anyone else or what it says to anyone. I actually agree with you about the M5 over the 650i, especially since they'll cost nearly the same money. K/A may be talking about something else, I'm not. I'm looking at the sheer price of the car vs what it delivers, not image or what it says to anyone else. I'm looking at the relative value of the 2 cars, in this case the M5 and the 650i. Nothing to do with image and I surely wouldn't plunk down a 100K on a car just because of what it says to others. That would be a very expensive, yet stupid thing to do.


M

 

[K-A]

Hey, no need to apologize. We're here trying to help you with your choices, and you come back with comments like this, and Beemer ''missing the point by a country mile'.
You say you wanted a BMW, I am a BMW fan trying to give you objective views between models. People like K-A simply hate the fact you're looking at a BMW, and they want to play with your mind by saying all these pathetic, snobbish 100k comments.

Explain exactly how I'm talking him out of a BMW, maybe a direct quote where I say "skip the BMW, get a Benz"? It'll be hard, because it doesn't exist.

The 6-Series is based off of a 5-Series, so we know that it's a mid-level BMW, it features the exact same powertrain as in the 550i (which is far under $100K), and isn't even marketed to compete with most $100K cars. Fact is, it's grossly overpriced. The interior, while very nice, doesn't scream $100K car to me either.... But it shouldn't, because unless you get it all fancied up (like that picture you posted) it's an interior of an $82K car, which is more realistic, but still, I wasn't so impressed.

I can post pictures of plenty of sub-$100K cars and say that they look good enough to be $200K cars. Fact is, all BMW's/Benzes are designed and built with the same attention to quality, from the 3 to the 7, so all of them should be able to visually look very upmarket.

What the 6'er lacks is that sense-of-occasion to it that makes you feel like it's designed to be exclusive, and that's where $100K comes in. It's certainly not priced because it's so roomy and luxurious, a'la S-Class or 7-Series, and the performance is great, but with all that weight, it'll be nothing to write home about, at that price.

Out of all of Merc's choices, given what he desires, I still think the 6-Series might edge the rest out, but it's biggest flaw IMO is its price. The 5-Series is designed just as well, but due to its nature/price/popularity is seen as a more plebeian car, and the design language is far more purposefully dull.... however knowing the real underlying engineering, powertrain, and extra R&D that has gone into the M5, makes it far more worth "$100K" than the 6-Series is. The 6 is prices by the marketing team, the M5 is priced much closer by the engineers.

 

[Beemer B773ER]

My apologies Merc. I must have entered halfway through your discussion with K-A, and misinterpreted the whole '$100K' issue. Apologies again.


Even though the first part of my post was off-mark, I still feel the comparison I gave of the M5 and 6er-MPack could be a bit helpful in understanding the difference between the two cars, and ultimately why if I were in your shoes I'd probably be leaning more towards the 6er. The only thing that would keep making me look over my shoulder at that M5 would be the fact that it's an M! Knowing how special such a car can be, ...just knowing that makes you pause and ponder. But, if you ain't gotta ferry around a bunch of little rascals, then in my honest opinion the 6er would be the way to go. I just went back to the thread where I posted the first photos of the 6erM-Pack..and man your reactions to those photos alone were priceless.

Even if the M5 is a stellar car to drive, the 6er with the slight M-Pack tweaks surely isn't a dud in the dynamics/handling department. Does the fact that it's an M5 outweigh the sexy GT-Coupe looks of the 6erM-Pack? In my opinion...... no. I wouldn't ever drive the M5 to its sheer limits (though just knowing you have this greater potential right at your fingertips would give me the heebie-jeebies), so all that M-magic ultimately isn't something I'd exploit and enjoy to the fullest. You'd still get a very very fine performance car if you went for the 650i..and the fact that the M5 has a donor motor from the 6er...that might just soften any 'oh I wish I had that barnstorming M5' buyer remorse.

Ultimately of course you will have to see both cars and drive them well to make your decision...but since you created this thread to get the opinions of your fellow forum members, I thought I'd give it a shot since I was fortunate enough to see both cars.

Just as a footnote. I've never driven in an M car...never even rode in one....so I may well be underselling how magical that M-magic is. According to some other members who have owned M cars, the difference is staggering, so I dunno...maybe the M5 magic is more than enough to negate the 6er's sexy visual appeal.

 

[Merc1]

My apologies Merc. I must have entered halfway through your discussion with K-A, and misinterpreted the whole '$100K' issue. Apologies again.


Even though the first part of my post was off-mark, I still feel the comparison I gave of the M5 and 6er-MPack could be a bit helpful in understanding the difference between the two cars, and ultimately why if I were in your shoes I'd probably be leaning more towards the 6er. The only thing that would keep making me look over my shoulder at that M5 would be the fact that it's an M! Knowing how special such a car can be, ...just knowing that makes you pause and ponder. But, if you ain't gotta ferry around a bunch of little rascals, then in my honest opinion the 6er would be the way to go. I just went back to the thread where I posted the first photos of the 6erM-Pack..and man your reactions to those photos alone were priceless.

Even if the M5 is a stellar car to drive, the 6er with the slight M-Pack tweaks surely isn't a dud in the dynamics/handling department. Does the fact that it's an M5 outweigh the sexy GT-Coupe looks of the 6erM-Pack? In my opinion...... no. I wouldn't ever drive the M5 to its sheer limits (though just knowing you have this greater potential right at your fingertips would give me the heebie-jeebies), so all that M-magic ultimately isn't something I'd exploit and enjoy to the fullest. You'd still get a very very fine performance car if you went for the 650i..and the fact that the M5 has a donor motor from the 6er...that might just soften any 'oh I wish I had that barnstorming M5' buyer remorse.

Ultimately of course you will have to see both cars and drive them well to make your decision...but since you created this thread to get the opinions of your fellow forum members, I thought I'd give it a shot since I was fortunate enough to see both cars.

Just as a footnote. I've never driven in an M car...never even rode in one....so I may well be underselling how magical that M-magic is. According to some other members who have owned M cars, the difference is staggering, so I dunno...maybe the M5 magic is more than enough to negate the 6er's sexy visual appeal.

Apology accepted. Thanks and I agree with your comparison of the 6 and the M5, and that is exactly it. Do I want the styling/less performance of the 6 or the OMG performance of the M5 with a little less style. A M6 would be the best answer, but it isn't out yet and it will likely be more than I want to spend. The decision of course will come when I get to see the M and the 6 together and drive both as you say. As they say, stay tuned!


M

 

[EnI]

The 6-Series is based off of a 5-Series, so we know that it's a mid-level BMW, it features the exact same powertrain as in the 550i (which is far under $100K), and isn't even marketed to compete with most $100K cars. Fact is, it's grossly overpriced. The interior, while very nice, doesn't scream $100K car to me either.... But it shouldn't, because unless you get it all fancied up (like that picture you posted) it's an interior of an $82K car, which is more realistic, but still, I wasn't so impressed.

What the 6'er lacks is that sense-of-occasion to it that makes you feel like it's designed to be exclusive, and that's where $100K comes in. It's certainly not priced because it's so roomy and luxurious, a'la S-Class or 7-Series, and the performance is great, but with all that weight, it'll be nothing to write home about, at that price.

Actually 6er is based on "BMW Large Platform" - like all 5er family, 7er family & RR Ghost family. in the E60 / E63 case 5er & 6er had special dedicated platform. Now it's a single common one - modular large.

Price positioning makes 6er more a sportier alternative to 7er than to 5er. That will be even more evident with 6er GC, I guess.

Regarding the interior & lack of occasion comments ... I'm not even going to comment them otherwise this tread can become a mess, which nobody wants to. Right?

@Marcus

M5 vs 650i (xDrive) ... It depends what do you really want.
M5 is certainly roomier & practical. More exclusive. More cocky. More brutal (styling too) & sportier. It's an M!
650i is more civil, more luxurious & GTish (yet more then enough powerful), more intimate - therefore less practical & roomy. You can get optional xDrive on 650i (better traction & better acceleration as well!). You can get Active Cruise Control etc. So, there is some convenience advantage over M5.

For those, who can't decise, BMW is providing a solution: 6er GC / M6 GC.

And there is also a question of price ... (eg. M5 vs 6er vs M6).

 

[K-A]

I'm afraid to even ask how expensive an M6 GC will be!

I just priced a 650i with only Premium Sound, M-Pack, and Heated Seats (i.e, minimal Options) and it came out to $91K. It's a tough sell at that price, for me. M-B are knocking $10-$20K off of some models to move them, and I don't follow how much BMW discounts their cars (I've heard a lot as well, not to mention artificially high Residuals, like M-B do), but at $75-$78K (don't call me crazy yet, in due time discounts like this are capable) the car goes from too expensive to a good buy IMO.

 

[klier]

Thanks, again I'll just say again you missed the point. Really lost here klier. Did you not see the sarcastic nonsense in the post I replied to? Apparently not.

M

Yeah, I guess I missed your point, and definitely the sarcastic tone. Sorry.

I'm afraid to even ask how expensive an M6 GC will be!

You're afraid as a Mercedes fan???? Why? a CL63 or CL65 cost so much more than the 6er, while basically the same sort of car. What I am trying to say, don't play the devil's advocate when you are more than familiar with the prices of high end German cars. These cars are expensive, there's nothing new here. This sudden debate whether it is worth it or not is completely crazy.

 

[FC123]

The V8 in the R8 is renowned for not producing anywhere near the hp figures Audi claim. I think the V8 in the M3 is far superior.

And as much as I agree the E92 interior is looking a bit dated against the F10 5 Series for example, to reject the M3 due to it's interior is kind of missing the point of the M3.

The 6 Series I would hazzard a guess would be completely dull to drive. Some of the first reviews seem to back this up.


All this is IMHO of course.

R8 V8 =

Powertrain performance
Wheel power 277 (376 / 371)
kW (PS / bhp)
at 1/min 7806
Total wheel torque / total reduction 396 (292)
Nm (lb-ft)
at 1/min 4710


Stated engine performance
Engine power 309 (420 / 414)
kW (PS / bhp)
at 1/min 7800
Engine torque 430 (317)
Nm (lb-ft)
at 1/min 4500 to 6000

M3 V8=

Performance

Powertrain performance
Wheel power 278 (378 / 373)
kW (PS / bhp)
at 1/min 7808
Total wheel torque / total reduction 365 (270)
Nm (lb-ft)
at 1/min 3901


Stated engine performance
Engine power 309 (420 / 414)
kW (PS / bhp)
at 1/min 8300
Engine torque 400 (295)
Nm (lb-ft)
at 1/min 3900